London / Mob behaviour

[kcdusk]

Has everyone seen the riots/looting/mob behaviour thats taken place in London over the last week?

Firstly, i hope anyone over there is safe.

Secondly, all of the violent incidents were triggered when a suspected drug dealer was shot dead. Since then, it seems like every night and even most days have seen thousands of people in the streets. Looting, rioting etc. Londons police force has struggled to maintain calm. Many innocent people have been hurt and a few killed.

Rioters have stolen off each other, and there has even been cases of rioters making people take their clothes off (why, i dont know, why steal someones jeans?).

Dangerous, bizare stuff. In England. A first world country. I know unemployment is high and theres been other potential reasons given. But i think everyone will agree its been extreme behaviour.

Now, imagine if a 3rd world war, a twilight war broke out. How do you think the public would react then? And how does that compare to how you thought a first world countrys populace might have behaved before the London riots?

[RN7]

A drug dealer from an ethnic minority background with a gun was shot and killed by the police in London, and the worst elements of England's ethnic minority jumped on the racial discrimination bandwagon and used it as an excuse to go on a voilent rampage of looting and destruction. The police werent expecting it and because of years of PC interference by the British government were reluctant to confront the rioters as most of them were from minority backgrounds and the police didn't want to be accused of being racist. This prolonged the problem which soon spread to other English cities, but it seems to have been brought under control as practically every police officer in the UK has been on the streets over the past few days.

There seems to be some severe social problems in Britain which allowed this to fester and has been ignored for years. An underclass of unemployed, badly educated and welfare dependent young people who seem to feel entitled to things they have done nothing to deserve, and the emergence of city gang culture and gun and drug crime, which has been compounded by large scale immigration from third world countries which was encouraged by Tony Blaire which have put a strain on Britain's social services and the decent hard working law abiding British tax payers who have had to pay for it. On top of that the police have had their hands tied by PC nonsense and haven't been able to do their job properly.

However the backlash against the rioters has been the best part of it all, as all the decent British people from all backgrounds are disgusted with what they saw happening, and 1,500 scumbags have been arrested and charged as most were picked up on CCTV cameras which are all over British cities. The British public seems to want the police to be given back the power to do their jobs properly again and get the gangs of the streets, and politicians are remarkably quite in their opposition to this. The rioters should realy consider themselves lucky as a sizeable minority of the British population wanted the British army on the streets to shoot them, and if they were living in countries were they realy have something to fear from the police they would have been shot dead by now.

[95th Rifleman]

Every nation has a layer of scum. I remember the riots after Rodney King was beaten by LA Police. One racist act by a few police officers sparked a riot that cost 53 lives.

Like most western nations, Britain tries to walk a fine line between order and human rights. Other nations have the luxury of ignoring human rights and as a result have less problems with civil disturbance. However the British people (like most western people) are of the opinion that running tanks over students isn't quite the way forward so we try to maintain our balance.

The riots had NOTHING to do with the police shooting, scum saw an excuse, saw the police where weak and took advantage of it. Just like they did in LA back in 1992.

For years the political correctness and human rights crowd havebeen taking pliers to the teeth of the British police and we have seen the effect. The balance has gone wrong and we havea police force trapped too far to one side, we need to make our Police strong again without going too far the other side of the line, this will take time and allot of work.

The European human rights act is the maing thing that cripples our legal system.

[kcdusk]

I thought it interesting that something relatively minor set off the events in what i would have considered a well managed country (sure, it has its problems, which country doesnt, but still first world).

Imagine food sortages, threat of nuclear war, some conventional bombing, real racial tention, no travel, paranoia, conscription, disease, famine, the whole 4 horseman business of the twilight war. I think what we've seen happen in london would happen on a much larger scale in Europe and the USA during the T2K war. It wouldnt just be Russians we would be fighting, we'd also be fighting our own home grown militants.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

I thought it interesting that something relatively minor set off the events in what i would have considered a well managed country (sure, it has its problems, which country doesnt, but still first world).

Imagine food sortages, threat of nuclear war, some conventional bombing, real racial tention, no travel, paranoia, conscription, disease, famine, the whole 4 horseman business of the twilight war. I think what we've seen happen in london would happen on a much larger scale in Europe and the USA during the T2K war. It wouldnt just be Russians we would be fighting, we'd also be fighting our own home grown militants.

I disagree entirely.

It is BECAUSE we have no real threats that society is so fractured, we have so much freedom and no threat to it, no fear to unite our culture and society.
If you look at the UK (and Germany) during WW2 and how united these nations became under the constant bombing campaighns you'll see a model for the twilight war.

I honestly think the problems we have today stem from too much freedom and not enough social fear, it's ironic that the threat of destruction is the one thing that truly unites a country.

[Tombot]

I am not so sure about the "scum"-topic...
When there are major riots, sure - there will be some people, just taking advantage of the chaos for looting.
BUT - if most people feeling like treated well, i am sure, that there would be not enough energy to spread such a mess.
I mean dead people ? Stripping somebody?

I work in a social occupation for a long time. Groups of people do behave different than individuals. But anyone who feels accepted within a society, has a certain (negative) hurdle to overcome, before taking massively destructive action.
And we are seeing continual riots here. That should mean something.

I dunno... there must be a not too small "minority" of residents which feels mistreated, otherwise i can not imagine such a force of destruction.
I dont have much knowledge about british politics, but i am sure that people generally are not THAT violent just because there is an opportunity.
There must be (maybe several mixing) reasons for that. Any english people here with more insight on that?

[Legbreaker]

I've heard it mentioned a large number of rioters have been armed with things such as blackberry's, expensive clothing and even more expensive cars. Add in that a large number of rioters arrested include such upstanding citizens as teachers aids (one example that springs to mind) and, well, I'd say it's not just a social underclass behind it all. My guess is yes the first night was a reaction to the shooting, but ever since it's mainly been an excuse by those who are just plain bored to get out there, trash the place and pick up a new plasma TV on the cheap.

In my mind there is NO excuse for the behaviour we've all seen splashed across the TV world wide. It's not like the British government are dragging people out of the beds in the middle of the night, flying them halfway around the world and torturing them before locking them away without a trial, or simply executing them... If that were happening I could understand it.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

In my mind there is NO excuse for the behaviour we've all seen splashed across the TV world wide. It's not like the British government are dragging people out of the beds in the middle of the night, flying them halfway around the world and torturing them before locking them away without a trial, or simply executing them... If that were happening I could understand it.

We tried that, we called it Australia.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

I disagree entirely.

I honestly think the problems we have today stem from too much freedom and not enough social fear, it's ironic that the threat of destruction is the one thing that truly unites a country.

This is an interesting point and I'm still thinking about it. I'm not sure I agree that we need more fear to bind society together. Look at what societies have become when fear is created, amplified, and/or played upon, especially by natuional governments:

Nazism
McCarthyism
Cultural Revolution

I think I'd rather deal with an occasional spate of rioting than live in a repressive police state.

But I can kind of see where you are coming from- I do agree that shared adversity can bind a nation together. Look at how well the UK and the U.S. came together behind the war effort in WWII. Granted, fear is a component of that shared adversity, but I'm not sure if it is the prime motivator/causal factor.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

We tried that, we called it Australia.

*winces and hides in his bunker to watch the war!*

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

*winces and hides in his bunker to watch the war!*

Knock Knock,Knock.

Would you let me in? I want to watch the war too!!

My $0.02

Mike

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

We tried that, we called it Australia.

Fair point. We'll accept that.
Of course that did end roughly a hundred and fifty years ago - around the same time as a certain war in a certain ex colony which involved slavery as a key element of it's causes...

[Targan]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

We tried that, we called it Australia

Originally Posted by Panther Al

*winces and hides in his bunker to watch the war!*

Heh heh. Many non-Australians probably don't realise that most Aussies are strangely proud of their convict heritage. Being a Brit, 95th Rifleman probably knows that. I doubt he thought his post would cause offense. It certainly doesn't offend me. The first of my paternal ancestors to come to Australia (my great-great-grandfather) was transported to Australia from the UK as a convict for stealing a gentleman's fob watch. His son (my great-grandfather) was an illiterate miner who was taught to read and write by his wife and became a cabinet minister in New Zealand's first Labour government (and invented the Semple Tank, New Zealand's home-grown AFV, during WWII).

[Legbreaker]

The way we look at it, the Brits sent us all their sporting and intellectual cream.
Lets examine: What's the population of the UK compared to Australia? How many times do we whip their arses all over the field?
Not bad for a bunch of convicts...

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Targan

Heh heh. Many non-Australians probably don't realise that most Aussies are strangely proud of their convict heritage. Being a Brit, 95th Rifleman probably knows that. I doubt he thought his post would cause offense. It certainly doesn't offend me. The first of my paternal ancestors to come to Australia (my great-great-grandfather) was transported to Australia from the UK as a convict for stealing a gentleman's fob watch. His son (my great-grandfather) was an illiterate miner who was taught to read and write by his wife and became a cabinet minister in New Zealand's first Labour government (and invented the Semple Tank, New Zealand's home-grown AFV, during WWII).

Heh, true enough, the west islanders do have that way about them.

But as friends and family down that way are asking: Ellis, Where the *bleep* is Webb Ellis?

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

Every nation has a layer of scum. I remember the riots after Rodney King was beaten by LA Police. One racist act by a few police officers sparked a riot that cost 53 lives.

Like most western nations, Britain tries to walk a fine line between order and human rights. Other nations have the luxury of ignoring human rights and as a result have less problems with civil disturbance. However the British people (like most western people) are of the opinion that running tanks over students isn't quite the way forward so we try to maintain our balance.

The riots had NOTHING to do with the police shooting, scum saw an excuse, saw the police where weak and took advantage of it. Just like they did in LA back in 1992.

For years the political correctness and human rights crowd havebeen taking pliers to the teeth of the British police and we have seen the effect. The balance has gone wrong and we havea police force trapped too far to one side, we need to make our Police strong again without going too far the other side of the line, this will take time and allot of work.

The European human rights act is the maing thing that cripples our legal system.

Rodney King was not really a racist beating by police officers. The black groups that try to make everything a racial issue, or the bullshit media that likes to make money off exploiting shit to make a buck made it one. Old Rodney got his ass beat down because Rodney was on pcp and didn't want do what he was told by the cops. The cops tell me to do something I try to do it. They hit me or most non high people with batons we tend to comply or atleast don't try to keep getting up. The media really made poor Rodney King a poor victim when he was really a junked up idiot. If the first responding officer(a female) would have just shot his ass we would have never heard of Rodney King.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Targan

Heh heh. Many non-Australians probably don't realise that most Aussies are strangely proud of their convict heritage. Being a Brit, 95th Rifleman probably knows that. I doubt he thought his post would cause offense. It certainly doesn't offend me. The first of my paternal ancestors to come to Australia (my great-great-grandfather) was transported to Australia from the UK as a convict for stealing a gentleman's fob watch. His son (my great-grandfather) was an illiterate miner who was taught to read and write by his wife and became a cabinet minister in New Zealand's first Labour government (and invented the Semple Tank, New Zealand's home-grown AFV, during WWII).

Australia inherited the British trait for friendly insults. tried explaining this to an American girlfriend, the more a brit insults you, the more he likes you.

When an Englishman is polite, he's planning your doom.

We've stayed on good terms with all our old colonies and hold them in great respect. Especialy since "most" of them join us in war on time. We won't mention the lazy one that sits on the sidelines waiting to see who is winning before getting involved......

[simonmark6]

As for Australians, it's not the ones descended from the criminals I'm worried about, it's the ones descended from the warders...

[LBraden]

True that Simon, the wardens were more corrupt than the bloody prisoners.

[Tombot]

Originally Posted by Raellus

This is an interesting point and I'm still thinking about it. I'm not sure I agree that we need more fear to bind society together. Look at what societies have become when fear is created, amplified, and/or played upon, especially by natuional governments:

Nazism
McCarthyism
Cultural Revolution

I think I'd rather deal with an occasional spate of rioting than live in a repressive police state.

But I can kind of see where you are coming from- I do agree that shared adversity can bind a nation together. Look at how well the UK and the U.S. came together behind the war effort in WWII. Granted, fear is a component of that shared adversity, but I'm not sure if it is the prime motivator/causal factor.

I´ll second that! Fear and paranoia are NEVER good influences for any society.
Thats part of what fascinates me about playing with in T2k - far away from being a threatening part of my reality (at least not now!)...

@ waiting4something:
I do remember seeing the camera-footage of King being beat up by several policemen, quite a while after the riots. What i saw was fact and there is nothing to interpret about the situation, after he was down on the ground.

I dont know about his behaviour before they got´em on the ground, i dont know if, or how much he has been doing drugs.
What they did was sadistic. They actually took turns, beating and kicking him (for minutes! I dont recall the exact length of the recording, but it was looong), standing around the man, and he WAS not posing a threat than. Even if he did´nt do anything what some police told him to do - possible, i dont know that -there is no f...ng reason for such an irrational behaviour from so many police-officers!

As a citizen i would´nt feel secure in a place, where the police is treating people like that. I would expect behaviour like that, in an "Elsie"-Camp of New America...

[Rainbow Six]

As several others have already said the vast majority of the rioting that has taken place had absolutely nothing to do with the Metropolitan Police shooting a suspected drug dealer (who happened to be armed himself). Personally I think the only rioting directly related to that wa the first night (the Saturday) in Tottenham, North London.

Unfortunately the Police struggled to maintain order in Tottenham that Saturday night (failed is probably a fairer word to use than struggled) and that probably prompted large numbers of individuals to engage in "copy cat" rioting over the next few days, but to reiterate, that had absolutely nothing to do with the initial shooting. To quote Legbreaker...

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I've heard it mentioned a large number of rioters have been armed with things such as blackberry's, expensive clothing and even more expensive cars. Add in that a large number of rioters arrested include such upstanding citizens as teachers aids (one example that springs to mind) and, well, I'd say it's not just a social underclass behind it all. My guess is yes the first night was a reaction to the shooting, but ever since it's mainly been an excuse by those who are just plain bored to get out there, trash the place and pick up a new plasma TV on the cheap.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

In my mind there is NO excuse for the behaviour we've all seen splashed across the TV world wide.

And again agreed.

I don't claim to be any sort of expert on this, but as you can imagine it has generated pretty much non stop news coverage ever since, and consenus seems to be that a) intially there weren't enough police officers on duty to actively deal with the situation and b) some of their tactics were flawed, partly because of their lack of numbers and partly for reasons that 95th Rifleman has already alluded to. Action was taken to correct both of these issues at the start of last week - for example the number of officers on duty in London was increased from 3,000 (Monday night) to 16,000 (Tuesday night) by cancelling all leave, pulling in off duty personnel and drafting in officers from other forces. Tactics also became more "robust"; arrests taking place continuously since the middle of last week with the vast majority of suspects being remanded without bail. Consequently things have been relatively quiet since last Tuesday, the 09th. Obviously the challenge for the police at the moment is that they cannot sustain 16,000 officers on the streets of London indefinitely.

On the subject of calling in the Army, there was a clamour for this in some areas at the start of last week but senior Police Officers stated that this was an absolute last resort (correctly in my opinion).

Now, all that said...with regard to a T2K Setting...whilst I agree with 95th Rifleman and think rioting in the streets of the UK would be unlikely before the nuclear exchanges, after the nuclear exchange I think it becomes much, much more likely...the have nots would attempt to take from the haves, by force if neccessary. However I think that unlike the current situation in some parts of England where it was the shops selling electronic gear, mobile phones, and designer clothers, in December 1997 it would have been the food shops, the camping gear shops, supermarkets, etc that would be the target. And to be fair, the response of the authorities could be expected to be even more robust, with the most common sentence quite possibly being either 5.56N or 7.62N.

Just a few thoughts on the matter...

[Fusilier]

"Flames began to billow from a shop and then a double-decker bus was engulfed in flames and quickly reduced to a twisted shell. Witnesses also reported seeing a jewellery shop and a bookmakers being looted. Teenagers and younger children were seen carrying valuables through the shattered glass front of an electrical shop. There were also reports that youths had stormed McDonald’s and had started frying their own burgers and chips."

On a lighter note, this had to be the funniest line that I noticed was being repeated several times by more than a few media outlets.

Stay classy Tottenham

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

"Flames began to billow from a shop and then a double-decker bus was engulfed in flames and quickly reduced to a twisted shell. Witnesses also reported seeing a jewellery shop and a bookmakers being looted. Teenagers and younger children were seen carrying valuables through the shattered glass front of an electrical shop. There were also reports that youths had stormed McDonald’s and had started frying their own burgers and chips."

On a lighter note, this had to be the funniest line that I noticed was being repeated several times by more than a few media outlets.

Stay classy Tottenham

There were some reports of looters in a sports shop actually trying shoes on first to make sure they stole the correct size...

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Tombot

I´ll second that! Fear and paranoia are NEVER good influences for any society.
Thats part of what fascinates me about playing with in T2k - far away from being a threatening part of my reality (at least not now!)...

@ waiting4something:
I do remember seeing the camera-footage of King being beat up by several policemen, quite a while after the riots. What i saw was fact and there is nothing to interpret about the situation, after he was down on the ground.

I dont know about his behaviour before they got´em on the ground, i dont know if, or how much he has been doing drugs.
What they did was sadistic. They actually took turns, beating and kicking him (for minutes! I dont recall the exact length of the recording, but it was looong), standing around the man, and he WAS not posing a threat than. Even if he did´nt do anything what some police told him to do - possible, i dont know that -there is no f...ng reason for such an irrational behaviour from so many police-officers!

As a citizen i would´nt feel secure in a place, where the police is treating people like that. I would expect behaviour like that, in an "Elsie"-Camp of New America...

The man was on pcp..... he's a threat. The man was beat with batons...... he was still trying to get up? That should tell you something. They took turns beating him most likely because beating people gets tiring and you need to take a break so you can beat them at 100% again. Sure was that the best way to get someone in custody? Don't know. I never had to deal with a guy hopped up on pcp.
The European idea of crime and punishment is different then North America. I used to think we where too soft on crime and still do in most cases. However, then I talked to a few Europeans and found out that we are the hard asses when it comes to punishment. They see us a barbarians. They are disgusted that some places still have a death penalty. I mean really why house some scum bag that will just get out and kill, rob, molest, rape, etc again and again. Sadly just like Sgt. Scott aka GR-13 in Universal Soldier says "the only way to teach them is to kill them".

[kcdusk]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Now, all that said...with regard to a T2K Setting...whilst I agree with 95th Rifleman and think rioting in the streets of the UK would be unlikely before the nuclear exchanges, after the nuclear exchange ..

I think there would be roiting before the nuclear exchange, protesting war in general, nuclear war specifically, and an element of trouble makers.

I dont think there will be roiting after the nuclear exchange ... due to lack of people and places to riot :-)

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

On the subject of calling in the Army, there was a clamour for this in some areas at the start of last week but senior Police Officers stated that this was an absolute last resort (correctly in my opinion).

I just wanted to address this part here.

I think that if the British .gov had called out the British Army, you could have done it like we do.

The Army guards the important stuff and creates impassable road blocks, freeing up the Police Forces to act and arrest.

Sort of square peg to square hole fit to purpose.

[Tombot]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

The man was on pcp..... he's a threat. The man was beat with batons...... he was still trying to get up? That should tell you something. They took turns beating him most likely because beating people gets tiring and you need to take a break so you can beat them at 100% again. Sure was that the best way to get someone in custody? Don't know. I never had to deal with a guy hopped up on pcp.
The European idea of crime and punishment is different then North America. I used to think we where too soft on crime and still do in most cases. However, then I talked to a few Europeans and found out that we are the hard asses when it comes to punishment. They see us a barbarians. They are disgusted that some places still have a death penalty. I mean really why house some scum bag that will just get out and kill, rob, molest, rape, etc again and again. Sadly just like Sgt. Scott aka GR-13 in Universal Soldier says "the only way to teach them is to kill them".

No. He wasnt able to get up at that point. Not anymore.
In the footage i saw, Rodney King was just lying on the ground, trying to protect his head. And they still took turns beating & kicking him from several sides for minutes. What does that tell me ?
Maybe that it had nothing to do with legal and just police-work.
Its a crime in itself, when policeofficers feel like they are the judge, too.

Personally i never saw americans as barbarians in terms of their laws.
Still, i am glad, that i dont have to "freeze" in my car, every time i am stopped in traffic, or else...
I guess thats about gun-laws and the habits of people wearing them (and being a potential threat) - but thats going to far, for a RPG-related forum...
I wont get into an argument about death-penaltys and all that.

But to quote an actionfilm-cyborg on this... well, whatever you say

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Tombot

No. He wasnt able to get up at that point. Not anymore.
In the footage i saw, Rodney King was just lying on the ground, trying to protect his head. And they still took turns beating & kicking him from several sides for minutes. What does that tell me ?
Maybe that it had nothing to do with legal and just police-work.
Its a crime in itself, when policeofficers feel like they are the judge, too.

Personally i never saw americans as barbarians in terms of their laws.
Still, i am glad, that i dont have to "freeze" in my car, every time i am stopped in traffic, or else...
I guess thats about gun-laws and the habits of people wearing them (and being a potential threat) - but thats going to far, for a RPG-related forum...
I wont get into an argument about death-penaltys and all that.

But to quote an actionfilm-cyborg on this... well, whatever you say

Tombot,

I've got A LOT of family in the law enforcement community, and if the letter had arrived a week and half sooner... i'd have gone to College instead of boot camp in 1989 and become a State Highway Patrol officer and went on an entirely different career path. What happened with King is something that 99% of the people have only seen the last 50% of what was happening with his time with the police. If you can get to see the entire video, please do. King was zooming on PCP, he attacked the police when he got out of his car. One of the officer's he attacked was one of the first female officers. He knocked her down and did bodily harm to her. The other police tried other forms of restraint, but they didn't work and they ended up going over the edge and beat him like a drum. That's not an excuse. But an explaination for what happened.

Dealing with someone hopped up on PCP isn't easy... hell, I've talked to officers who've stated taht they've had to SHOOT the person (both males and females) multiple times... because they just were not stop advancing on them. And this was officers using .45s and .38s and not the little wimpy 9mm they are using today. One first hand story i was given, was the PCP junkie was IN THE POLICE STATION being booked when they had a flashback (not completely zooming on the stuff) and they started throwing cops and dectives all around the squadroom. It took EVERYONE in the room (and others from out of the station jumping in) to bring this guy down.

The other story I was told dealt with a zoomie who had JUMPED OFF the roof of a thrid story building, he broke his leg and kept running. When the officers cornered him he fought them off and nearly killed one of the officers when he threw them through a windshield (the broken glass cut his throat, he had a massive concussion). Three officers started shooting when the Zoomie jumped on said officer and started to bash his head in. They emptied their pistols into the guy, and he was still trying to kill them.

What happened with King wasn't the worse case of Police overreacting. And when it happens I get really pissed off. And I can get you links of cases where officers acted in bad faith... and give you essays on just how screwed up tey were and how they should have gotten the book thrown at them. But usually that comes only after I've seen or read EVERYTHING dealing with the incident so I can get into their heads and try to figure out what they where thinking... and then make a judgement on what happened.

All I'm saying is that the Rodney King beating wasn't the worse case... But trying to say that the cops were dealing with someone who was fighting them, and then when they finally started to get control of the situattion they were hyped up on adrenile and didn't back off. It's why they were not found guilty of criminal charges, but brought up on civil ones.

One of the worst problems with what happened in this case was that the media hyped up the back end of the incident, and didn't show the first half where King attacked the officers... I put all the bad things that came out of the incident into the hands of the damn media who did not show everything that happened.

The media went for sensationalism, and not facts.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Tombot

No. He wasnt able to get up at that point. Not anymore.
In the footage i saw, Rodney King was just lying on the ground, trying to protect his head. And they still took turns beating & kicking him from several sides for minutes. What does that tell me ?
Maybe that it had nothing to do with legal and just police-work.
Its a crime in itself, when policeofficers feel like they are the judge, too.

Personally i never saw americans as barbarians in terms of their laws.
Still, i am glad, that i dont have to "freeze" in my car, every time i am stopped in traffic, or else...
I guess thats about gun-laws and the habits of people wearing them (and being a potential threat) - but thats going to far, for a RPG-related forum...
I wont get into an argument about death-penaltys and all that.

But to quote an actionfilm-cyborg on this... well, whatever you say

"Whatever I say. What a wonderful philosophy you have." The Toe Cutter from Mad Max.
I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm just telling you what the real deal behind Rodney King is. Most Americans never even knew this dude was on junk. They just believe what the media shows.

[Bullet Magnet]

Originally Posted by LBraden

True that Simon, the wardens were more corrupt than the bloody prisoners.

Well, you know.....REAL criminals don't get arrested; they get elected!