London / Mob behaviour

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

I thought it interesting that something relatively minor set off the events in what i would have considered a well managed country (sure, it has its problems, which country doesnt, but still first world).

Imagine food sortages, threat of nuclear war, some conventional bombing, real racial tention, no travel, paranoia, conscription, disease, famine, the whole 4 horseman business of the twilight war. I think what we've seen happen in london would happen on a much larger scale in Europe and the USA during the T2K war. It wouldnt just be Russians we would be fighting, we'd also be fighting our own home grown militants.

I disagree entirely.

It is BECAUSE we have no real threats that society is so fractured, we have so much freedom and no threat to it, no fear to unite our culture and society.
If you look at the UK (and Germany) during WW2 and how united these nations became under the constant bombing campaighns you'll see a model for the twilight war.

I honestly think the problems we have today stem from too much freedom and not enough social fear, it's ironic that the threat of destruction is the one thing that truly unites a country.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

I disagree entirely.

I honestly think the problems we have today stem from too much freedom and not enough social fear, it's ironic that the threat of destruction is the one thing that truly unites a country.

This is an interesting point and I'm still thinking about it. I'm not sure I agree that we need more fear to bind society together. Look at what societies have become when fear is created, amplified, and/or played upon, especially by natuional governments:

Nazism
McCarthyism
Cultural Revolution

I think I'd rather deal with an occasional spate of rioting than live in a repressive police state.

But I can kind of see where you are coming from- I do agree that shared adversity can bind a nation together. Look at how well the UK and the U.S. came together behind the war effort in WWII. Granted, fear is a component of that shared adversity, but I'm not sure if it is the prime motivator/causal factor.

[Tombot]

Originally Posted by Raellus

This is an interesting point and I'm still thinking about it. I'm not sure I agree that we need more fear to bind society together. Look at what societies have become when fear is created, amplified, and/or played upon, especially by natuional governments:

Nazism
McCarthyism
Cultural Revolution

I think I'd rather deal with an occasional spate of rioting than live in a repressive police state.

But I can kind of see where you are coming from- I do agree that shared adversity can bind a nation together. Look at how well the UK and the U.S. came together behind the war effort in WWII. Granted, fear is a component of that shared adversity, but I'm not sure if it is the prime motivator/causal factor.

I´ll second that! Fear and paranoia are NEVER good influences for any society.
Thats part of what fascinates me about playing with in T2k - far away from being a threatening part of my reality (at least not now!)...

@ waiting4something:
I do remember seeing the camera-footage of King being beat up by several policemen, quite a while after the riots. What i saw was fact and there is nothing to interpret about the situation, after he was down on the ground.

I dont know about his behaviour before they got´em on the ground, i dont know if, or how much he has been doing drugs.
What they did was sadistic. They actually took turns, beating and kicking him (for minutes! I dont recall the exact length of the recording, but it was looong), standing around the man, and he WAS not posing a threat than. Even if he did´nt do anything what some police told him to do - possible, i dont know that -there is no f...ng reason for such an irrational behaviour from so many police-officers!

As a citizen i would´nt feel secure in a place, where the police is treating people like that. I would expect behaviour like that, in an "Elsie"-Camp of New America...

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Tombot

I´ll second that! Fear and paranoia are NEVER good influences for any society.
Thats part of what fascinates me about playing with in T2k - far away from being a threatening part of my reality (at least not now!)...

@ waiting4something:
I do remember seeing the camera-footage of King being beat up by several policemen, quite a while after the riots. What i saw was fact and there is nothing to interpret about the situation, after he was down on the ground.

I dont know about his behaviour before they got´em on the ground, i dont know if, or how much he has been doing drugs.
What they did was sadistic. They actually took turns, beating and kicking him (for minutes! I dont recall the exact length of the recording, but it was looong), standing around the man, and he WAS not posing a threat than. Even if he did´nt do anything what some police told him to do - possible, i dont know that -there is no f...ng reason for such an irrational behaviour from so many police-officers!

As a citizen i would´nt feel secure in a place, where the police is treating people like that. I would expect behaviour like that, in an "Elsie"-Camp of New America...

The man was on pcp..... he's a threat. The man was beat with batons...... he was still trying to get up? That should tell you something. They took turns beating him most likely because beating people gets tiring and you need to take a break so you can beat them at 100% again. Sure was that the best way to get someone in custody? Don't know. I never had to deal with a guy hopped up on pcp.
The European idea of crime and punishment is different then North America. I used to think we where too soft on crime and still do in most cases. However, then I talked to a few Europeans and found out that we are the hard asses when it comes to punishment. They see us a barbarians. They are disgusted that some places still have a death penalty. I mean really why house some scum bag that will just get out and kill, rob, molest, rape, etc again and again. Sadly just like Sgt. Scott aka GR-13 in Universal Soldier says "the only way to teach them is to kill them".

[Tombot]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

The man was on pcp..... he's a threat. The man was beat with batons...... he was still trying to get up? That should tell you something. They took turns beating him most likely because beating people gets tiring and you need to take a break so you can beat them at 100% again. Sure was that the best way to get someone in custody? Don't know. I never had to deal with a guy hopped up on pcp.
The European idea of crime and punishment is different then North America. I used to think we where too soft on crime and still do in most cases. However, then I talked to a few Europeans and found out that we are the hard asses when it comes to punishment. They see us a barbarians. They are disgusted that some places still have a death penalty. I mean really why house some scum bag that will just get out and kill, rob, molest, rape, etc again and again. Sadly just like Sgt. Scott aka GR-13 in Universal Soldier says "the only way to teach them is to kill them".

No. He wasnt able to get up at that point. Not anymore.
In the footage i saw, Rodney King was just lying on the ground, trying to protect his head. And they still took turns beating & kicking him from several sides for minutes. What does that tell me ?
Maybe that it had nothing to do with legal and just police-work.
Its a crime in itself, when policeofficers feel like they are the judge, too.

Personally i never saw americans as barbarians in terms of their laws.
Still, i am glad, that i dont have to "freeze" in my car, every time i am stopped in traffic, or else...
I guess thats about gun-laws and the habits of people wearing them (and being a potential threat) - but thats going to far, for a RPG-related forum...
I wont get into an argument about death-penaltys and all that.

But to quote an actionfilm-cyborg on this... well, whatever you say

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Tombot

No. He wasnt able to get up at that point. Not anymore.
In the footage i saw, Rodney King was just lying on the ground, trying to protect his head. And they still took turns beating & kicking him from several sides for minutes. What does that tell me ?
Maybe that it had nothing to do with legal and just police-work.
Its a crime in itself, when policeofficers feel like they are the judge, too.

Personally i never saw americans as barbarians in terms of their laws.
Still, i am glad, that i dont have to "freeze" in my car, every time i am stopped in traffic, or else...
I guess thats about gun-laws and the habits of people wearing them (and being a potential threat) - but thats going to far, for a RPG-related forum...
I wont get into an argument about death-penaltys and all that.

But to quote an actionfilm-cyborg on this... well, whatever you say

Tombot,

I've got A LOT of family in the law enforcement community, and if the letter had arrived a week and half sooner... i'd have gone to College instead of boot camp in 1989 and become a State Highway Patrol officer and went on an entirely different career path. What happened with King is something that 99% of the people have only seen the last 50% of what was happening with his time with the police. If you can get to see the entire video, please do. King was zooming on PCP, he attacked the police when he got out of his car. One of the officer's he attacked was one of the first female officers. He knocked her down and did bodily harm to her. The other police tried other forms of restraint, but they didn't work and they ended up going over the edge and beat him like a drum. That's not an excuse. But an explaination for what happened.

Dealing with someone hopped up on PCP isn't easy... hell, I've talked to officers who've stated taht they've had to SHOOT the person (both males and females) multiple times... because they just were not stop advancing on them. And this was officers using .45s and .38s and not the little wimpy 9mm they are using today. One first hand story i was given, was the PCP junkie was IN THE POLICE STATION being booked when they had a flashback (not completely zooming on the stuff) and they started throwing cops and dectives all around the squadroom. It took EVERYONE in the room (and others from out of the station jumping in) to bring this guy down.

The other story I was told dealt with a zoomie who had JUMPED OFF the roof of a thrid story building, he broke his leg and kept running. When the officers cornered him he fought them off and nearly killed one of the officers when he threw them through a windshield (the broken glass cut his throat, he had a massive concussion). Three officers started shooting when the Zoomie jumped on said officer and started to bash his head in. They emptied their pistols into the guy, and he was still trying to kill them.

What happened with King wasn't the worse case of Police overreacting. And when it happens I get really pissed off. And I can get you links of cases where officers acted in bad faith... and give you essays on just how screwed up tey were and how they should have gotten the book thrown at them. But usually that comes only after I've seen or read EVERYTHING dealing with the incident so I can get into their heads and try to figure out what they where thinking... and then make a judgement on what happened.

All I'm saying is that the Rodney King beating wasn't the worse case... But trying to say that the cops were dealing with someone who was fighting them, and then when they finally started to get control of the situattion they were hyped up on adrenile and didn't back off. It's why they were not found guilty of criminal charges, but brought up on civil ones.

One of the worst problems with what happened in this case was that the media hyped up the back end of the incident, and didn't show the first half where King attacked the officers... I put all the bad things that came out of the incident into the hands of the damn media who did not show everything that happened.

The media went for sensationalism, and not facts.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Tombot

No. He wasnt able to get up at that point. Not anymore.
In the footage i saw, Rodney King was just lying on the ground, trying to protect his head. And they still took turns beating & kicking him from several sides for minutes. What does that tell me ?
Maybe that it had nothing to do with legal and just police-work.
Its a crime in itself, when policeofficers feel like they are the judge, too.

Personally i never saw americans as barbarians in terms of their laws.
Still, i am glad, that i dont have to "freeze" in my car, every time i am stopped in traffic, or else...
I guess thats about gun-laws and the habits of people wearing them (and being a potential threat) - but thats going to far, for a RPG-related forum...
I wont get into an argument about death-penaltys and all that.

But to quote an actionfilm-cyborg on this... well, whatever you say

"Whatever I say. What a wonderful philosophy you have." The Toe Cutter from Mad Max.
I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm just telling you what the real deal behind Rodney King is. Most Americans never even knew this dude was on junk. They just believe what the media shows.

[waiting4something]

natehale1971 it's good to see you don't buy into the media bullshit.The media today like everything else... about making money. They don't care who gets crushed or what mayhem they cause to make that money. Half the time I believe the don't research their stories or flat out write up lies.
PCP is like the worst drug you could wish that your combatant is on. Remember in the movie Terminator when the cop(Lance Henrikson) told Sarah Connor that the guy that punched through the car windshield was probably on PCP and broke every bone in his and wouldn't feel it for hours. Hell if knew someone was on pcp I would go right for the 12 gauge. 2 to the head, 1 to the chest. Playing WWE with a person with superhuman strengh sounds like a bad idea. FUCK BEING MR. NICE GUY!

[Targan]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

The man was on pcp..... he's a threat. The man was beat with batons...... he was still trying to get up? That should tell you something. They took turns beating him most likely because beating people gets tiring and you need to take a break so you can beat them at 100% again. Sure was that the best way to get someone in custody? Don't know. I never had to deal with a guy hopped up on pcp.
The European idea of crime and punishment is different then North America. I used to think we where too soft on crime and still do in most cases. However, then I talked to a few Europeans and found out that we are the hard asses when it comes to punishment. They see us a barbarians. They are disgusted that some places still have a death penalty. I mean really why house some scum bag that will just get out and kill, rob, molest, rape, etc again and again. Sadly just like Sgt. Scott aka GR-13 in Universal Soldier says "the only way to teach them is to kill them".

Umm... ok. Well you've made your opinions on the matter pretty clear. That part about "They took turns beating him most likely because beating people gets tiring and you need to take a break so you can beat them at 100% again", were you joking there? With text it's hard to tell. From your comment "They see us a barbarians." it seems you wear that label as a badge of pride?

We'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid. Your views seem a bit extreme and frightening to me, but I'm living in a country where people don't shoot each other by the hundreds on a daily basis. Maybe if I lived in or adjacent to some low-income, gang-infested hell-hole I might feel as you do, so I'm not going to judge your opinions.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Targan

Umm... ok. Well you've made your opinions on the matter pretty clear. That part about "They took turns beating him most likely because beating people gets tiring and you need to take a break so you can beat them at 100% again", were you joking there? With text it's hard to tell. From your comment "They see us a barbarians." it seems you wear that label as a badge of pride?

We'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid. Your views seem a bit extreme and frightening to me, but I'm living in a country where people don't shoot each other by the hundreds on a daily basis. Maybe if I lived in or adjacent to some low-income, gang-infested hell-hole I might feel as you do, so I'm not going to judge your opinions.

Yeah, I am serious beating people is tiring! When someone doesn't go down like they are Rocky or something. Yeah it's better to be getting some wind back before you attack again. This is why you see boxers always hugging each other in the ring they aren't really hugging they are just really tired. This is my point.
As far as other countries that see Americans as being to hard on criminal punishment it just makes me smile, because I know we are far for that. The world has taken a very limp-wristed view on holding people accountable for there actions. You can murder innocent people, because you wanted to be badass then when you serve time you expect 3 hots and a cot. Excercise, visitors, education, make new bad guy friends etc. I mean what is that college? Most of these guy's will replay the crap they did before. But some people in the world feel they deserve to be treated fairly.
The only probelm with death penalties is they cost to much with all the legal red tape it takes to get someone removed. That and we really don't get a benefit from this type of forgiveness. I mean a lot of convicts could be of good use as medical test subjects. Why test a cute furry bunny that is quite different from ourselves when we can use the real thing. Someone needs a new kidney, hey we have in stock. It makes sense.
But, I guess guys like the Califonia Night Stalker get to just be celebs with there kooky fans writing them.

[Webstral]

Gentlemen, not only are we getting a bit off-topic, but the tenor of the opinions posted is stepping outside the drawing room. There are plenty of places where on the Internet where one can express one's opinions as thuggishly as one wishes. This is not one of those places. In keeping with our founder's vision of not restricting freedom of expression, I'm not going to say that people can't or even shouldn't express viewpoints such as those in favor of the death penalty. I will say, though, that arguments for or against should be made in a fashion that reflects a level of consideration appropriate for a gentlemen's club or a philosoph.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I mean a lot of convicts could be of good use as medical test subjects. Why test a cute furry bunny that is quite different from ourselves when we can use the real thing. Someone needs a new kidney, hey we have in stock. It makes sense.

Well hey, it's been done before. Dr Josef Mengele had quite an extensive program underway during the 1940s. He was hunted for decades after WWII for war crimes and crimes against humanity but I guess some people might still regard his "research" as being justified.

And the Chinese government regularly harvests organs from prisoners. What a great ole bunch of happy campers the Chinese government are, right?