Division Cuba Revisited

[Raellus]

I think that a lot of us consider the T2K Cuban operations on U.S. soil to be a Red Dawn-inspired flight of fancy- I fell into this category myself. I just stumbled on to a few articles on a late-Cold War battle fought between the SADF and Cuban forces in Angola called Cuito Cuanavale. This battle lasted several months (it's more of a campaign than a battle, really) in 1987-'88 and both sides claimed victory. Although who won and who lost in probably moot, what it is clear is how well the Cubans accounted themselves against a relatively modern, western-style, experienced and well-equipped military force, both tactically and logistically. What's probably most impressive is how efficiently the Cubans were able to supply their forces in Angola by both sea and air, crossing the broad Atlantic in order to do so.

Here's a brief summary article on the battle:

http://www.historytoday.com/gary-bai...uito-cuanavale

This has me reconsidering the plausibility of a Soviet-supported landing in the SE United States. The hardest part would be getting on to American soil relatively intact. They'd probably need both surprise and significant Soviet naval and air power in order to do so. After that, if Cuito Cuanavale is any indication, the Cubans might be able to give the Americans more than they bargained for.

I didn't look at the v1.0 chronology before writing this, but if the Cuban "invasion" of the American SE and the Mexican invasion SW happened concurrently, or close on the heels of one another, their combined and respective success/effectiveness would most likely have been increased as the Americans struggled to respond to both unexpected threats near simultaneously.

Even if the Cuban "invasion" ultimately proved to be a fiasco (like a modern, reverse Bay of Pigs, if you will), it would tie down American resources and the Soviet Bloc could still spin it as a moral victory ("Our glorious socialist brothers set foot on fascist, imperialist American soil" might run the Pravda headlines).

I plan on doing some more research on the Cubans in Angola in the late '80s and if I find anything else applicable to T2K, I'll make sure to share it. I'm interested in your thoughts on this subject.

[Olefin]

Actually the Cubans werent part of the Soviet Division Cuba landing - they were transported here by the Mexicans not the Cubans. The Cubans, as was made clear in both Red Star Lone Star and Spanish Main modules didnt want any part of the Twilight War and fighting the US.

Thus the Soviet invasion of the US Southwest involved not the Cubans but the Mexicans, with the Cubans basically getting rid of the Soviets to avoid having the US target them.

Spanish Main also emphasizes how the Cubans are not at war with the US and would not necessarily treat US soldiers as combatants if they encountered them.

Per Red Star

Upon the retirement from office of Fidel Castro in 1992, a
series of more moderate successors took over the government
in Cuba.

When the Sino-Soviet war began, Presidents Hernandez gave
verbal support to the USSR, but otherwise remained uninvolved.
When Germany declared reunification, the Cubans objected
diplomatically, but began to get nervous. The Cuban ambassador
to France was heard to remark that "...a match has just been
applied to a fuse, and if the explosion involves us in a war with
the Yankees, we could all die!"

When NATO entered East Germany, the Cubans were increasingly
nervous. To distance themselves even more from the USSR
(at least in American eyes), an arrangement was concluded for
a Soviet coastal enclave at Mariel, like the American one at
Guantanamo Bay. All Soviet military personnel, including those
serving in Cuban units (amounting to about a division all told)
were to move into this enclave. The Mariel enclave was rapidly
nicknamed "Guantanamo II" by the news media.

In 1998, it became increasingly obvious to Major General
Femerov, commander of the Soviet troops in Cuba, that Guantanamo
II presented a very tempting target for the U.S. This fact,
combined with pressure from a Cuban government anxious to
appear increasingly neutral to America, caused Femerov to look
for a means to get out of Cuba while striking a blow for the
USSR.

The opportunity to deliver a blow into America came shortly
after the election of the partly Marxist PRI/PPS coalition in the
summer of 1998. The PPS offered Femerov and his "Division
Cuba" a passage off of the island and back to the USSR, in
return for a short detour. Femerov and his soldiers were to assist
in a proposed invasion of America, to drive into the Yankee
heartland, and end the war. Femerov considered the proposal
for a time, and agreed.

The Soviet Division Cuba moved out of Cuba on Mexican
transports in June, 1998, and into action shortly thereafter.

[dragoon500ly]

There is no mention of Cuba in either v1 or 2, taking part in an invasion of the US. Its certainly a possibility for a Florida invasion.

In real life, the Cuban Navy has two ex-Soviet Polnocny-class ambpibious warfare ships, total lift is 200 soldiers each or 180 tons of cargo (5 MBTs). The also had a 350 man naval infantry "battalion".

The Cuban Army, at the time, consisted of 125,000 personnel in 1 armored division, 3 motor rifle divisions, 6 infantry divisions and 1 airborne/special forces brigade. Another 190,000 personnel were in the reserves which would fill out the Regular Army as well as an additional 3 motor rifle and 12 infantry divisions.

Equipment wise they had some 60 T-62, 250 T-54/55 and 350-T-34 tanks, 100 Su-100 assault guns; some 100 BMP-1s and over 400 BTR-40/-60/-152 APCs. Artillery support tended towards the lighter calibers with some 1,200 76mm, 85mm, 122mm, 130mm and 152m guns/hows as well as 50 FROG-4 SSMs

The Cuban Air Force has some 16,000 personnel with over 250 combat aircraft:
1 FGA Sqn with 15 MiG-17; 3 FGA Sqns with 36 MiG-23BN.

16 Interceptor Sqns: 2 with 30 MiG-21D; 3 with 34 MiG-21PFM; 2 with 20 MiG-21PFMA; 8 with 100 MiG-21bis and 1 with 15 MiG-23E.

4 Transport Sqns with 16 Il-14, 35 An-2, 3 An-24, 22 An-26 and 4 Yak-40.

8 Helicopter Sqns with 60 Mi-4, 40 Mi-8 and 18 Mi-24D

In one of Harold Coyle's novels (Swordpoint I belive) he has a US invasion of Mexico and brings in the Nicaraguians to suppor the Mexican Army...hmmmm

Their Army had some 47,000 personnel in 3 armnd bns, 10 infantry bns, 3 artillery bns and supporting units. Equipment wise, they had M-4A3 and
T-54/55 tanks, as well as 12 BTR-60 APCs.

The Navy was strictly coastal patrol with 1 landing craft.

The Air Force had 1,500 men with 10 combat aircraft:
1 COIN Sqn w/3 T-33A, 3 T-28D and 4 SF-260
1 Transport Sqn w/1 C-212A, 1 Arava and 4 C-47
1 Helicopter Sqn w/2 OH-6A, 2 Alouette III and 2 Mi-8

Venezuela could also be tossed in.

Their Army had 27,500 personnel in 1 armd bde, 1 Para brigade, 1 Cavalry (horsed) battalion, 26 infantry bns, and 4 artillery groups. Equipment was mostly French and included 75 AMX-30 MBT, 40 AMX-13 tanks, 10 AMX-245, 12 M-8, 60 M-706E1 armored cars; 25 AMX-VCI, 100 V-100 APCs as well as a helicopter squadron with 1 Bell 206B and 7 UH01D/H

The Navy included 8,500 personnel. The VN had 4 LST, 1 LSM for troop lift
(1,203 men) and 4,000 Marines in 3 bns (LVTP-7 APCs)

The Venezuelan Air Force had 4,500 personnel with some 79 combat aircraft:
2 Light Bomber/Recon Sqns w/20 Canberra (12 B-82, 5 B(I)-82, 1 PR-83 and 2 T-84 versions).

1 FGA Sqn w/5 Mirage IIIEV, 5 Mirage 5V and 2 Mirage 5DV

2 Interceptor Squadrons: 1 with 14 CF-5A, 2 CF-5D; 1 with 16 Mirage IIIEV

2 Transport Sqns w/5 C-130H, 5 C-47, 7 C-123A and 2 G-222

1 Helicopter Sqn w/14 UH-1D/H

1 Para Bn (estimated strength was 500 men)

sources is the Military Balance 1983/84 and Warships of the World 1993

[Olefin]

Considering the current state of the US forces any Cuban invasion would have had to been stopped by nukes. There wouldnt have been anything to stop them with.

Frankly stopping the Mexicans and one Soviet division took everything the US had left. Add in the Cubans and MilGov would have had only once choice - nuke Cuba and the invasion force on US soil as well.

Either that or a wholesale pullout from Europe in 1998 and thus the Soviets win in Europe and there is no 5th division to be overrun at Kalisz.

[Louied]

Raellus,
This should get you started on books:

http://www.30degreessouth.co.uk/

However it should be noted that Cuito Cuanavale, from what I have researched,
was more of a stalemate on both sides. Cuba had an extensive infrastructure in place in Angola by 1987 and the Soviets provided both sea an air transport to keep the logistical chain going for them. The initial Angolan/Cuban offensive (IIRC, 6x Bdes)against UNITA was decisively stopped by about a Bdes worth of SADF/SWATF units. The subsequent 'battle' of Cuito Cuanavale was more of a siege where the Angolan/Cuban forces couldn't push out east while UNITA/SADF couldn't push the Angolans/Cubans out of the town. What really broke the stalemate was Castro had the Soviets help him build up a Div sized force in SW Angola to threaten SWA (Namibia) and the Calueque dam/hydroelectrical complex (this was on the border between the two countries and had previously been considered off limits). The South Africans realized to counter this a massive callup of Citizen Force Units would need to happen (a CF Bde already replaced regular units at Cuito Cuanavale) which would disrupt the economy and put 'The Border War' on the front pages. IIRC, the South Africans made it known quietly that they were 'prepared' to callup the entire CF (a Corps of 2 + Divs) to counter a Cuban invasion. Thus both sides were able to head to the peace table after 'saving face'.
Obviously I gave you the short version, but one of the best books I've read on the subject is 'The War for Africa: Twelve Months that Transformed a Continent'
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/187...w_bottom_links

Try this one also 'War in Angola: The Final South African Phase'
http://www.amazon.com/War-Angola-Fin...=war+in+angola

This book is coming out in June/July ' The Last Hot Battle of The Cold War'
http://www.amazon.com/LAST-HOT-BATTL...=war+in+angola

[Olefin]

Basically having the Cubans join the invasion would lead to a major change in the canon for the US to have been able to combat it.

At the very least

The three divisions sent to Yugoslavia now are sent to the South or Texas to fight the Cubans.

So you have the 42nd Infantry, the 76th Infantry and the 80th Infantry now heading to the southeast or Texas instead - so the canon mentions of units trying to get to Yugoslavia would be moot.

Add to that the 70th Light Infantry Division as well

And most likely the 194th and the 197th Brigades as well

Otherwise they have to pull a lot of units out of Europe and bring them home - you arent going to stop the Cubans with MP and Engineering units

[Raellus]

I apologize for not being more clear. I was just thinking out loud, as it were, contemplating the idea of a Cuban invasion of the American SE, in addition to the Soviet "Division Cuba". I realize that it's not canonical and I'm not advocating that it should be. I just thought it would be an interesting topic of discussion.

[Olefin]

No actually it is an interesting topic and it would be a great alternative to the canon if people want to play a variation.

It wouldnt fit within the canon per se because it would change so much - basically a lot of the mid 1998 canon and on would go down the tubes.

But it could be used for those who want to use the Twilight 2000 rules for a Red Dawn type war instead of the Twilight War - focused more on the US than on Europe.

For instance in such an invasion would the CivGov and MilGov split have even occurred since it would take an all out effort by the remaining forces in the US to keep the Cubans at bay?

Would the US continue the war in Europe or abandon its allies with the Russians still having significant forces because the troops are better needed at home?

[Raellus]

All good points. I should have included a disclaimer or something along the lines of "Alternative Scenario" in my thread starter post.

[Tegyrius]

Instead of invasion during the war, how about Cuba (possibly with the aid of some orphaned Soviet naval assets) making a play for any remaining oil platforms in the Gulf post-2000? This could bring them onto the stage of Red Star, Lone Star and make for the beginnings of a naval campaign off the Texas coast.

Alternately or additionally, they might be interested in helping stomp on the New America cell in Florida (Urban Guerilla) once they became aware of NA's agenda... particularly if NA was subtly targeting Cuban-Americans with its various antics. That could make for a very "strange bedfellows" sort of arrangement.

- C.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Instead of invasion during the war, how about Cuba (possibly with the aid of some orphaned Soviet naval assets) making a play for any remaining oil platforms in the Gulf post-2000? This could bring them onto the stage of Red Star, Lone Star and make for the beginnings of a naval campaign off the Texas coast.

Alternately or additionally, they might be interested in helping stomp on the New America cell in Florida (Urban Guerilla) once they became aware of NA's agenda... particularly if NA was subtly targeting Cuban-Americans with its various antics. That could make for a very "strange bedfellows" sort of arrangement.

- C.

Now that is a great idea - having the Cubans actually help the US out by taking on NA! In my campaign we actually allied with the Cubans on Grenada to take out the NA sponsored pirates off of Grenada and then helped them get home. You could see them getting home and telling their commanders that NA is bad news - that they are a threat to not only the US but to Cuba and that they had to be stopped before they got too strong.

The idea about the oil platforms also is a good one - they are abandoned so the Cubans could salvage them and put them back into operation - maybe even offer MilGov or CivGov a share of the oil in return for the Cubans "protecting" the oil platforms from pirates or marauders.

[Cdnwolf]

An interesting look at Cuba during a modern war ... try this book



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_(novel))

[Matt Wiser]

An excellent read, Vortex. It's in the suggested fiction thread, btw.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I apologize for not being more clear. I was just thinking out loud, as it were, contemplating the idea of a Cuban invasion of the American SE, in addition to the Soviet "Division Cuba". I realize that it's not canonical and I'm not advocating that it should be. I just thought it would be an interesting topic of discussion.

I found it interesting. I may actually may use for coming up with scenarios for using my micro armor, as it would match the forces that I have nicely. I always had too much Soviet and American equipment if it was just The Mexicans/Division Cuba and the smattering of US forces. If you add the Cubans and don't deploy US forces to Jugoslavia in 1998, larger armor battles (of the type I would like to simulate) become more logical. It also gives me an excuse to try to model an American town in addition to all the Central/Eastern European stuff I have.

I could give my French equipment to the Mexicans and explain my small amount of British/German/Chinese forces as being similar to:
British 1/The Cheshire Regiment
British 1/The Royal Hampshire Regiment
West German 81st Panzer Grenadier Battalion
West German 53rd Panzer Battalion

which canon has in Canada for training. (Does anyone know the source for this off hand, I totally forgot, but they are in my databases). Having them training at FT Hood instead would add them to the mix.

[Olefin]

The whole scenario of the Cuban invasion is sort of a Twilight 2000 reboot as more of a straight WWIII military game if you think about - with the action moving to the US now with an all out Cuban invasion possibly bringing real armored warfare to areas that didnt see it in the regular timeline

and having the forces that went to Yugoslavia instead having to be sent against the Cubans takes them to being back in the thick of things instead of to a backwater

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by kato13

I found it interesting. I may actually may use for coming up with scenarios for using my micro armor, as it would match the forces that I have nicely. I always had too much Soviet and American equipment if it was just The Mexicans/Division Cuba and the smattering of US forces. If you add the Cubans and don't deploy US forces to Jugoslavia in 1998, larger armor battles (of the type I would like to simulate) become more logical. It also gives me an excuse to try to model an American town in addition to all the Central/Eastern European stuff I have.

I could give my French equipment to the Mexicans and explain my small amount for British/German/Chinese forces as being similar to:
British 1/The Cheshire Regiment
British 1/The Royal Hampshire Regiment
West German 81st Panzer Grenadier Battalion
West German 53rd Panzer Battalion

which canon has in Canada for training. (Does anyone know the source for this off hand, I totally forgot, but they are in my databases). Having them training at FT Hood instead would add them to the mix.

arent those units in the Canada magazine article if I remember right?

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by kato13

I found it interesting. I may actually may use for coming up with scenarios for using my micro armor, as it would match the forces that I have nicely. I always had too much Soviet and American equipment if it was just The Mexicans/Division Cuba and the smattering of US forces. If you add the Cubans and don't deploy US forces to Jugoslavia in 1998, larger armor battles (of the type I would like to simulate) become more logical. It also gives me an excuse to try to model an American town in addition to all the Central/Eastern European stuff I have.

I could give my French equipment to the Mexicans and explain my small amount for British/German/Chinese forces as being similar to:
British 1/The Cheshire Regiment
British 1/The Royal Hampshire Regiment
West German 81st Panzer Grenadier Battalion
West German 53rd Panzer Battalion

which canon has in Canada for training. (Does anyone know the source for this off hand, I totally forgot, but they are in my databases). Having them training at FT Hood instead would add them to the mix.

Not sure about the German Units, but it probably wouldn't take too much handwavium to say that at the least the British Units was moved to say, NTC, for workups before joining up with British Forces in the Middle East before things went pear shaped.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Olefin

arent those units in the Canada magazine article if I remember right?

That's correct. I can't recall the issue number off hand but it was one of the first Challenge magazines to be published after Twilight 2000 was launched (iirc same issue also had a mini adventure set in Iran entitled Shell Game). Both the UK and Germany have permanent bases in Canada - the British at Suffield, Alberta and the Germans at Shilo, Manitoba.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Now that is a great idea - having the Cubans actually help the US out by taking on NA! In my campaign we actually allied with the Cubans on Grenada to take out the NA sponsored pirates off of Grenada and then helped them get home. You could see them getting home and telling their commanders that NA is bad news - that they are a threat to not only the US but to Cuba and that they had to be stopped before they got too strong.

The idea about the oil platforms also is a good one - they are abandoned so the Cubans could salvage them and put them back into operation - maybe even offer MilGov or CivGov a share of the oil in return for the Cubans "protecting" the oil platforms from pirates or marauders.

Not to mention the Cubans might have enough boats available to try and start up some influence-building by trading all over Florida. Not conquest, but certainly building friendly ties. We've seen that the post-Castro junta there is not willing to fight the Yankees directly, but maybe a soft approach?

Now, if that carrier hulk that some of us are talking about is still grounded off Key West as a MilGov (Navy) outpost, we have the workings of a Gulf campaign.