Rations

[rcaf_777]

Something I found the other side of Role Playing Game Section

I think this is what military rations would be in Twilight

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=4536

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I wonder how many tons of MREs and C-Rats are typically available for the US military?

I mean, I realize by 1997 - starting equipment aside - that military units are living off the land (farming not only for fuel but for food as well), how much prepackaged food would trickle in?

[Olefin]

I would say by 2000 most preserved foods for ration packs would either be smoked or dried or salted and packaging would be either boxed or paper wrapped

I could see a lot of smoked and salted meats, jerky, packages of nuts, certain hard cheeses, and stuff like dried fruits and vegetables being the contents of ration packs by the time of Kalisz

[Raellus]

Modern MREs Are Fine Dining Compared To What Troops Ate In The Revolutionary War

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...olutionary-war

Armies might not be able to do much better c.2000.

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[bash]

I think there's a few advantages T2k has over both the 18th century and the Morrow Project setting when it comes to food.

The first big one is knowledge. In T2k germ theory exists and is understood as is Pasteurization and canning. These things are game changers when it comes to food safety. Pasteurization and canning can preserve more types of food and for longer durations than older preservation techniques.

The second is fairly wide availability of stuff. TDM didn't cause all modern technologies and products to disintegrate. There's going to be literal tons of jars, bottles, utensils, cookery, and crockery (including Tupperware or equivalent) in every first and second world town and village. There's also literal tons of food safe storage containers in the hands of civilians and militaries. Foods can be cooked and preserved more efficiently and under safer conditions than during the Revolutionary War.

Another big difference is that before TDM the whole planet had huge preserved food industries. While international trade of foods would have slowed by 1996 most countries had domestic packaging concerns. I would assume everyone would have started crash food production (Defense Production Act et al) efforts as the war ramped up both for military and civilian consumption.

With that in mind anywhere that can generate a good surplus is likely going to pump out rations for encamped forces. Stews and such that might have normally been in tin cans would can as well in jars. As nutritional science is also better in T2k than the 18th century I can picture fruit bars being a popular ration item. That's in addition to hardtack/crackers and preserved meats.

I'd also think there would be literal tons of condiments floating all around. While not necessarily foods themselves they're shelf stable and have at least a few nutrients. Some hot sauce or a jelly packet can make shitty food palatable enough to choke down. Jelly packet toilet hootch would be a hot commodity in the cantonments.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I wonder how many tons of MREs and C-Rats are typically available for the US military?

I mean, I realize by 1997 - starting equipment aside - that military units are living off the land (farming not only for fuel but for food as well), how much prepackaged food would trickle in?

Rations would be still held in europe but there issue would most likly be issued under the dire of curcumstances. You see an inceased use of feild kitchens, which would an issue for US troops as they are more ration oriented vs feild kitchen. Most US army feild kitchens are used for making Unitized Group Ration or B Rations.

https://quartermaster.army.mil/jccoe...ing_Jun_11.pdf

I remember being on excrise in the US and talking soilders where amzaed that we still using the Mobile Kitchen Trailer (MKT) and the hot food that came out of it.

https://quartermaster.army.mil/jccoe...ng-Systems.pdf

As you see but this doc there only two kitchen units in service in the US Army the Mobile Kitchen Trailer (MKT) and Kitchen Company Level Field
Feeding (KCLFF).

https://www.slideserve.com/kris/oper...ing-specialist

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by bash

The second is fairly wide availability of stuff. TDM didn't cause all modern technologies and products to disintegrate. There's going to be literal tons of jars, bottles, utensils, cookery, and crockery (including Tupperware or equivalent) in every first and second world town and village. There's also literal tons of food safe storage containers in the hands of civilians and militaries. Foods can be cooked and preserved more efficiently and under safer conditions than during the Revolutionary War.

With that in mind anywhere that can generate a good surplus is likely going to pump out rations for encamped forces. Stews and such that might have normally been in tin cans would can as well in jars. As nutritional science is also better in T2k than the 18th century I can picture fruit bars being a popular ration item. That's in addition to hardtack/crackers and preserved meats.

You raise a lot of good points, Bash. Some things to consider:

Jars and other sealable glassware, although a good food storage medium if you have a safe space to store them, probably wouldn't make for good field ration packaging. Glass probably won't hold up to being ported around in a pack for very long, and it turns into razor-sharp shrapnel when struck with high-velocity projectiles. I wouldn't want a ruck full of jars on my back during a firefight.

Cans pretty much eliminate those issues, but few communities are going to be able to produce new ones. I suppose cans could be reused but they would require really good cleaning and sterilization first so that they don't rust prior to reuse (contrary to their nomenclature, tin cans are usually made of steel alloy because tin is a lot more expensive), or contaminate whatever fresh foodstuff one might put into them. It might be difficult to reseal them properly, without specialized machinery and/or fresh tin for lids.

According to the USDA website, dented cans can be dangerous.

"If a can containing food has a small dent, but is otherwise in good shape, the food should be safe to eat. Discard deeply dented cans. A deep dent is one that you can lay your finger into. Deep dents often have sharp points. A sharp dent on either the top or side seam can damage the seam and allow bacteria to enter the can. Discard any can with a deep dent on any seam."

On the other hand, good Tupperware-style food storage containers are made to be reusable and can last quite a while. However, most common household models won't hold up long to sustained hard use. As most of us have experienced, plastic food storage lids often come loose at the most inopportune times- especially ones that have been in use a long time. I imagine many a soldier in the T2kU has had their rucksack contents doused with food juice from loose, split, improperly closed plasticware lids. If exposed to sunlight for any length of time, plastic starts to become increasingly brittle (here in AZ, it'll shatter like glass after a few weeks of summer sun). Also, PCBs (especially back in the 1980s and '90s) would be prevalent in plastics used in food containers (although they're probably not something players/Refs are going to worry about).

Originally Posted by bash

I'd also think there would be literal tons of condiments floating all around. While not necessarily foods themselves they're shelf stable and have at least a few nutrients. Some hot sauce or a jelly packet can make shitty food palatable enough to choke down. Jelly packet toilet hootch would be a hot commodity in the cantonments.

For the first couple of years after manufacturing stops, yes. After that, though? Believe it or not, most condiments have a fixed expiry period. I've opened old ketchup packets to find the contents have aged to a dark red, thick, vinegary paste- no longer appetizing and, I reckon, not particularly safe. A lot of condiments require refrigeration after opening. That's not going to readily available, especially to soldiers.

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[Cdnwolf]

How much food would also be "fresh"? I think preserving with salt and smoking it would figure largely when all the process food is gone. Salted rat in a fennel broth anyone?

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

...
I remember being on excrise in the US and talking soilders where amzaed that we still using the Mobile Kitchen Trailer (MKT) and the hot food that came out of it.

...

When was this? We still had MKT's when I got out in 2012, they may not have been used much but were still in the inventory, and our cooks still trained to use them (as much as anything else they did).

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by CDAT

When was this? We still had MKT's when I got out in 2012, they may not have been used much but were still in the inventory, and our cooks still trained to use them (as much as anything else they did).

1995

Give this a read

https://www.nap.edu/read/5002/chapter/7

The US army was feeding a lot of troops using MRE and Tray rations during the first Gulf war and there were found in the Brigade Service Area behind the front line. There are only four MKT per mechanized infantry brigade.

In the game setting, you see makeshift kitchens with whatever army or civilians cooking. You will also see bakeries and maybe a few small kitchens specialized in certain tasks, IE meat cooking, smoking, etc.

You might still have MRE but like other foods stock, they would most likely armed guards with orders to shoot looters.

it would interesting to see how units address the large logestics of feed. You need plates, mugs, glasses, knife forks spoons, pots and pans ect

While the US army has some of thses where are you going spare or spare parts for cooking systems.

Food for Thought lol

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

1995

Give this a read

https://www.nap.edu/read/5002/chapter/7

The US army was feeding a lot of troops using MRE and Tray rations during the first Gulf war and there were found in the Brigade Service Area behind the front line. There are only four MKT per mechanized infantry brigade.

In the game setting, you see makeshift kitchens with whatever army or civilians cooking. You will also see bakeries and maybe a few small kitchens specialized in certain tasks, IE meat cooking, smoking, etc.

You might still have MRE but like other foods stock, they would most likely armed guards with orders to shoot looters.

it would interesting to see how units address the large logestics of feed. You need plates, mugs, glasses, knife forks spoons, pots and pans ect

While the US army has some of thses where are you going spare or spare parts for cooking systems.

Food for Thought lol

When I deployed in 2003 we spent the first eight months eating nothing but MRE's, then the cooks finally set up the MKT's for the next couple, after that they had mess halls built. We were a separate battalion (Core Wheeled) and had one MKT per company, at that time there were only two units like mine in the US Army, so not sure if we were a hold over TOE, or what. As for the Plates, mugs and that each soldier had there personal mess kit and canteen cup (not that we used them we used disposable at the MKT, and they had stuff at the mess hall).

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by CDAT

When I deployed in 2003 we spent the first eight months eating nothing but MRE's, then the cooks finally set up the MKT's for the next couple, after that they had mess halls built. We were a separate battalion (Core Wheeled) and had one MKT per company, at that time there were only two units like mine in the US Army, so not sure if we were a hold over TOE, or what. As for the Plates, mugs and that each soldier had there personal mess kit and canteen cup (not that we used them we used disposable at the MKT, and they had stuff at the mess hall).

Mess Kits need to cleaned

http://www.seabeecook.com/equipment/...ne_messkit.htm


http://www.seabeecook.com/sanitation/field/tips.htm

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Mess Kits need to cleaned

http://www.seabeecook.com/equipment/...ne_messkit.htm


http://www.seabeecook.com/sanitation/field/tips.htm

So do the trays that the MKT has, so does the gear that the troop has, so does the troop. So basically everything needs cleaned, now I can not speak for every unit, or every deployment but main things you need to clean is clean water (that is what the water purification units are for) and according to the links you provided a way to boil the water. How about using the MKT's to boil the water? So I am not sure what you are trying to say? I am not saying that the mess kits are with out issue but it looks to me like you are saying that they would be more issue than the same thing just under a different name.

[Vespers War]

One of the issues that would face a T2K food situation and trying to source the foods for these rations is the extreme concentration of crops. Take the Midwest. Here's their acreage of plant-based agriculture according to the USDA/NASS 2020 State Agriculture Overview (in millions of acres):

Iowa:
13.6 corn
9.4 soybean
1.225 hay
0.17 oats

Missouri:
5.85 soybeans
3.45 corn
3.145 hay
0.48 winter wheat
0.295 cotton
0.228 rice
0.035 oats

Nebraska
10.2 corn
5.2 soybeans
2.77 hay
0.9 winter wheat
0.195 sorghum
0.135 oats
0.13 millet
0.05 sunflower
0.046 sugarbeet
0.036 peas
0.019 potato

Kansas
6.6 winter wheat
6.1 corn
4.75 soybeans
3.0 sorghum
2.665 hay
0.195 cotton
0.14 oats
0.073 sunflower
0.016 barley
0.005 canola

Other than Nebraska's 36,000 acres of peas, there's no significant vegetables, and 19,000 acres of potatoes isn't much either. Modern agriculture is dependent on modern transportation infrastructure to get crops from where they're grown to where they're consumed, and when that breaks down, there's going to be malnourishment even in regions where sufficient food is grown from a caloric perspective.

Using the Rations for All food, peaches in particular are one I was discussing with a crop scientist recently. The closest significant source to these four states would be South Carolina. Michigan produces 6,000 tons per year, but that's less than 10% of what South Carolina produces and about 1.5% of what California produces; however they are the closest significant source of apples I know of at roughly 463,000 tons a year. I don't even know where they'd get pears. The closest tomatoes for D13 (and probably D7 and D8) would be in Florida.

There would be areas where the necessary foods could be sourced, but they'd be rare because of how crop concentration has progressed. Without easy transportation, that ration system's going to rapidly break down.

[CDAT]

One other thing that many forget, just because an area grows food, does not mean it has food year round. Some may have food most of the time, other only a very small amount of the time. Taking my home town for example it grows a lot of food, however if you were to show up in the winter there is no food to be had in the fields, same with just after planting.

[Vespers War]

I pulled out some of my WWI ration notes and decided to check it against the potatoes. The 19,000 acres produced 9,306,000 cwt according to USDA records. They use the short hundredweight of 100 pounds, not the 112 pound long hundredweight, so it's a straight 93,060,000 pounds of potatoes.

The WW1 potato ration for a US soldier in garrison was 20 ounces per day. The potato harvest is enough to supply 20 ounces of potatoes per day to 203,967 people for a year, assuming 100% utilization (no waste and no substitutes). However, that would have to cover both military and civilian use. Since Nebraska's population is slightly under 2 million, there would need to be a roughly 90% casualty rate for Nebraska to be able to feed its own civilians that sort of potato ration, and that assumes production remained constant with 1/10 the population and there still wouldn't be a surplus for military use (and the other three states would still have no potatoes at all).

Substitutes will stretch that - the peas add 10,126 person-years to the ~200k for the potatoes, but we're still covering an area with a current population of around 13 million. Corn, on the other hand, is massively overgrown (because large portions of it are for ethanol). Nebraska produces about 1.79 billion bushels of grain corn (they also grow close to 5 million tons of silage corn, but I'm not touching that because I don't want to get into animal feed). A bushel is 56 pounds, but only 36% of that is edible weight for humans. A ration of canned corn is 12 ounces. Put all of that together, and Nebraska alone produces close to 131,500,000 person-years of corn in a year. Corn is relatively light in vitamins and minerals for its caloric content, though, so there will be enough food from an energy perspective but poor nutrition through the area. It'll be a heavily meat-and-maize diet.

[micromachine]

How viable is farming really going to be in a world where fallout and hot zones are still making people sick ? Where are the seed crops coming from? Where is the clean water and fertilizer coming from?

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by micromachine

How viable is farming really going to be in a world where fallout and hot zones are still making people sick ? Where are the seed crops coming from? Where is the clean water and fertilizer coming from?

Those are good questions. We discussed some issues relating to farming in the post-apocalyptic world in this thread:

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread....hlight=farming

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