Mortar's

[kcdusk]

Is anyone using mortars in their games? To what effect? Size?

[Legbreaker]

They're not exactly practical for smaller groups, same with most other types of artillery. However, I've never seen a group that didn't have at least one in their arsenal.
Usually there's a lack of forward observers too in my experience.

[aspqrz]

But, theoretically, mind, you could rig them up like some of the 'Gun Mortars' used on some modern French armoured cars, and use them in direct fire mode as well. Theoretically.

Phil

[pmulcahy11b]

And remember, firing a Grenade Launcher is nothing like firing a mortar. There should be a separate skill.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

And remember, firing a Grenade Launcher is nothing like firing a mortar. There should be a separate skill.

True. Something like Indirect Fire Weapons that allows the laying and firing of mortars, light artillery, tripod mounted machineguns and automatic grenade launchers at targets using maps, compass, and sights such as the C2A1, along with various electronic aids.

[dragoon500ly]

Truly, anything above 60mm is a waste of a player groups time, although watching the antics of players trying to set up a 120mm during an ambush can be amusing!

[Legbreaker]

Not as much fun as watching them debus from a vehicle while still in the kill zone to assault across several hundred metres of open ground on foot.
Yeah, that works out well....

[Adm.Lee]

I remember in a Merc game, my PC shooting a 60mm mortar at a barracks.
- First shot? Over.
- 2nd shot? short.
- Other PCs: "Why are we waiting for this? Look, they're starting to come out of the barracks now! Let's open up and get in there!"
- Third shot? Right through the roof, adjacent to the front door, where the bad guys were arming and rushing for the door. Lots and lots of die-rolling, for damage and fragments and more damage.
- Me: "That's why we're waiting. Now go and collect their surrender."

I can think of another game, I was GM, where the PCs barrelled into an ambush, which had 120mm mortars covering the kill zone. That really spooked the PCs, and they drove away really fast, despite having some armor.

But yeah, most of the time, IF weapons, beyond grenade-launchers, weren't really used.

[Legbreaker]

That reminds me of another time with another group going through Ruins of Warsaw.
The PCs had set up a meet with an arms dealer and shown up with a truck and LAV-75 to make the trade. Naturally things went bad and the merchant's covering force opened up with a mortar firing chemical rounds (those in the meeting had gas masks on their belts). First shot hit the LAV on the glacis resulted in absolute panic on the part of the PCs (they ran away as fast as they could).
One of the players had all of his characters after that wear a chem suit 24/7 - and his character at the time had been safely tucked away in the LAV!

[LT. Ox]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

That reminds me of another time with another group going through Ruins of Warsaw.
The PCs had set up a meet with an arms dealer and shown up with a truck and LAV-75 to make the trade. Naturally things went bad and the merchant's covering force opened up with a mortar firing chemical rounds (those in the meeting had gas masks on their belts). First shot hit the LAV on the glacis resulted in absolute panic on the part of the PCs (they ran away as fast as they could).
One of the players had all of his characters after that wear a chem suit 24/7 - and his character at the time had been safely tucked away in the LAV!

Now in the 2020 merc game I may need one of those suites..... How to get item have and chem scare. yes that should work

[aspqrz]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

One of the players had all of his characters after that wear a chem suit 24/7 - and his character at the time had been safely tucked away in the LAV!

I know MOPP suits are only good for a relatively short period after the plastic wrap they come in is opened ... 24 hours or until taken off, whichever is the lesser is the best figure I have seen ...

(However, I know as a Company Sig back in the day we were ordered to break the batteries of our AN/PRC-25 Radios in two on something hard when we replaced them every, 24 hours?, to prevent them being from being reused ... the implication being that they were rated for longer periods of use ... so maybe its the same with MOPP suits).

Then there are the filters on the Gas Mask - again, change every 24 hours.

So wearing them all the time would be ... expensive. Dying would be cheaper

Phil

[Legbreaker]

Meanwhile we were using our "dead" batteries to charge up the PALs (Patrol Ambush Light). Can't remember the exact details, but I think it was 24 hours on the battery gave ten minutes of absolutely BLINDING light.

[copeab]

Unless you have a large party, one of the commando mortars would be most appropriate. Not as accurate as a normal light mortar, but much more portable and normally operated by one man.

[Olefin]

have had several different groups that had mortars - and you are right you need larger parties to handle them - the most we ever had (and this was my first campaign where we ended up having our party getting enough 5th division guys out that we had quite the time feeding and transporting everyone) was two 81mm mortars, one 60mm mortar and two 120mm mortars that we captured - with the 120's almost never being used

[rcaf_777]

France, UK, Canada and Belgium have infantry/light mortars that are used at the platoon level. They usually have a crew of two.

I was my platoon mortar man when I was infantry. Canada had the M19 Light Mortar which I carried and hated it there was nothing light about it. It’s a 60mm Mortar it only took a crew of one to operate, the number two was basically the ammo carrier. As my unit was light infantry (IE no wheels) additional ammo was spread out thought the platoon. Spotting was always difficult if you were lucky you or your number were mortar qualified and were able to spot rounds effectively. Since my reserve unit was not designated to have a Mortar Platoon, I was usually out of luck.

Mostly theses mortars were used for laying smoke to cover platoon movements. The only time I remember using HE was for defensive ops and I had the large base plate and the bipod.

[LT. Ox]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

France, UK, Canada and Belgium have infantry/light mortars that are used at the platoon level. They usually have a crew of two.

I was my platoon mortar man when I was infantry. Canada had the M19 Light Mortar which I carried and hated it there was nothing light about it. It’s a 60mm Mortar it only took a crew of one to operate, the number two was basically the ammo carrier. As my unit was light infantry (IE no wheels) additional ammo was spread out thought the platoon. Spotting was always difficult if you were lucky you or your number were mortar qualified and were able to spot rounds effectively. Since my reserve unit was not designated to have a Mortar Platoon, I was usually out of luck.

Mostly theses mortars were used for laying smoke to cover platoon movements. The only time I remember using HE was for defensive ops and I had the large base plate and the bipod.

The 60's were dropped during my time in Viet Nam as the wonderful M-79 and LAW was to supplant them. I liked the law and loved the M-79 but the loss of the 60's as company support was felt big time.
I operated as an FO and we could get support in a hurry "most" times and it was on target "most" times just not as fast nor as on target as company level 60's.
when your getting fired on BY light mortars you want to counter battery [U][I]right now!![I][U] not after a bit of radio chatter.

[Ancestor]

I don't use them for the PCs but against them it is a real threat, especially if they don't have armor. We just played one of the best gaming sessions of my RPG career. But all it entailed was the PC's plus an NPC forward observer trying to find and then take out a Russian mortar team. The session was about 1 and 1/2 hours and it was really tense. And I stuck religiously to the V.1 rules. It's funny b/c the PCs and their associated NPCs are Infantry. We've played PC's vs T-72 tank, PC's vs mob, and PC's vs sniper scenarios and every time they've taken mercy on any captured wounded. This time, once they located the enemy 82, killed one of the bad guys team and wounded the other three I asked them what they wanted to do with the survivors. The company commander PC said shoot them and the 1SG PC said I'll do it myself.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by aspqrz

I know MOPP suits are only good for a relatively short period after the plastic wrap they come in is opened ... 24 hours or until taken off, whichever is the lesser is the best figure I have seen ...

(However, I know as a Company Sig back in the day we were ordered to break the batteries of our AN/PRC-25 Radios in two on something hard when we replaced them every, 24 hours?, to prevent them being from being reused ... the implication being that they were rated for longer periods of use ... so maybe its the same with MOPP suits).

Then there are the filters on the Gas Mask - again, change every 24 hours.

So wearing them all the time would be ... expensive. Dying would be cheaper

Phil

I have heard this claim before (in my own unit). Actually the MOPP suit was good for two years from the date you remove it from the packaging (provided it was NOT washed). It was good for only 24 hours IN THE ACTUAL NBC ENVIRONMENT before it began to fail to provide protection from the threat. This is also the life expectancy of the hood on your gas mask. This could prove interesting if you were to get "hung up" in an NBC environment. Loiter too long and your MOPP suit fails. They also fail rather quickly if they get completely saturated with water. A major downside to NBC ops in bad weather.

[swaghauler]

The problem with IF in Twilight2000 is that the authors were using very outdated information. The accuracy limits for IF are an example. The CEP (Circular Error, Probable) fell below the blast radius of most mortars in the early 90's. The key factors would be:
1. Does the FO know EXACTLY where he is in the world (say by GPS)?
2. Does the FO know the EXACT DISTANCE to the target (say because he used a laser range finder or ranging binoculars to measure it)?
If the answer to these two questions is "yes," then the target is in a heap of trouble because it is a fairly simple math problem to compute the target grid coordinates. I would propose the following rules for IF in Twilight:

-If the FO has a GPS (with signal), a Laser Range Finder, and can "pre-plot" his fire, then his chance to hit is EASY:FO.
-If the FO has a GPS (with signal), Stadiametric Ranging Binoculars, and can "pre-plot" his fire OR a Grid map and Laser Range Finder, and can "pre-plot" his fire, then his chance to hit is AVE:FO.
-If the FO has a Grid Map, Stadiametric Ranging Binoculars, and can "pre-plot" his fire, then his chance to hit is DIF:FO.
-If the FO has a Grid Map but no reliable method of "ranging" the target (he must "eyeball" it), and can "pre-plot" his fire, then his chance to hit is FRM:FO.
-If the FO has neither a Grid Map or a method of "ranging" the target, then his chance to hit is IMP:FO (whether he "pre-plots" or not).

"Pre-plotting" takes about 30 seconds. If the FO cannot "pre-plot" the fire, then the GM should reduce his chance to hit by one level, for calling fire "on the fly" (don't laugh at this, many good FO's could do that VERY well).
An FO who is forced to "guestimate" the range to the target due to a lack of equipment, can increase their chance to hit by one level with a DIF:OBSERVATION roll.

The to hit roll for the fire should be recorded and the difference between the chance to hit and the actual roll should be subtracted from the round's deviation roll. Missed to hit rolls should have the difference between the chance to hit and the actual roll ADDED to the round's deviation roll.

I also have a system for NPCs taking fire and maintaining combat flow. When you roll the number of hits from Fragmentation, you add this to any blast/concussion damage the round might do. Each DIE of Concussion and each frag HIT is compared to an NPC's CON value with the following results.
-If the NPC takes a number of concussion DICE + Frag HITS equal to his CON or less, he is still in the fight with a Slight wound.
-If the NPC takes 2 X CON in Concussion DICE + Frag HITS, he suffers a Serious Wound.
-If the NPC takes 3 X CON in Concussion DICE + Frag HITS, he suffers a Critical Wound.
-If the NPC takes 4 X CON in Concussion DICE + Frag HITS, he is killed.

This will help you quickly resolve artillery or heavy weapons fire into groups of NPCs and still allow the players the feeling that they are in control of the results of Indirect Fire during play.

[pmulcahy11b]

At the mech and light units I've been, the mortars went into the Weapons Platoon; the difference between mech and light is that the mech units have 120mm (then 4.2") mortars, and in the light units, they had 81s.

At the 82nd, there were also 81s in the Weapons Platoon. It addition, each platoon had their own 60mm, with a gunner, assistant gunner assigned to tend to the mortar. I don't remember how many rounds the crew had, but most of the platoon carried 1-4 rounds for the mortar.

[Targan]

A bit OT, but this sounds good:

Marines get new mortar in Iraq

[Legbreaker]

Given the lack of GPS and other electronic devices in working order in T2K, I'm good with the relative inaccuracy of indirect fire. Basically without all the high tech gadgets, just how accurate, first round, is it really going to get?

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Given the lack of GPS and other electronic devices in working order in T2K, I'm good with the relative inaccuracy of indirect fire. Basically without all the high tech gadgets, just how accurate, first round, is it really going to get?

It depends on how accurate he is in determining where he is on the map. His grid coordinates are the base he uses for determining the enemy's grid coordinates. The more accurate his location and his "ranging" of the enemy, the more accurate the fire. This plays out very harshly where "registration" has occurred. Registration is when an FO "confirms" his initial plot by firing rounds on the location. Emplaced units will probably have registered key points like bridges and road junctions and even set up pre-arranged fire missions on these locations. An example would be the FO saying "Fire Mission on road juncture 1!" over the radio, and the mortar team dropping 4 rounds in a box pattern on that road. This should give one pause before they launch an assault on say...Krakow.

[Legbreaker]

So that boils down to the FO skill of the spotter and the skill of the person laying the weapon also.

[kcdusk]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

It depends on how accurate he is in determining where he is on the map. His grid coordinates are the base he uses for determining the enemy's grid coordinates.

If you have a map, you'd highly likely have grid co-ords, yes? And if your a FO, you would have a pretty natural feel for your location and distance to enemy? So even in a T2K world, you would at least have this base covered, yes?

What i mean is, the first shot would be reasonably accurate?

[James Langham2]

I would suggest that the main uses were:

(a) illumination - something we often overlook in these days of extensive night vision gear

(b) smoke - in armies without GLs (such as the British pre the UGL) this is vital

It is worth noting that in the UK it was planned to withdraw the 51mm mortar on issue of the UGL but in fact there is now an urgent operational requirement to replace it with a 60mm mortar on operational use.

[LT. Ox]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Given the lack of GPS and other electronic devices in working order in T2K, I'm good with the relative inaccuracy of indirect fire. Basically without all the high tech gadgets, just how accurate, first round, is it really going to get?

I some times wonder just how much "live fire" practice could be done with ammo stocks they way they must be leading to just how good your teams can be?
Just thinken

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by LT. Ox

I some times wonder just how much "live fire" practice could be done with ammo stocks they way they must be leading to just how good your teams can be?
Just thinken

Agreed. By the time of 2000, our game setting, how many properly qualified and experienced mortar and artillerymen are there left? Counter-battery fire is a bitch, not to mention radiation, starvation, bullets, rockets, exposure, etc every survivor is bound to have been exposed to.

Granted the will to live is a good teacher, but crew served weapons require a bit more training, practice and coordination than a "simple" rifle or machinegun. Those few pre/early war qualified "dropshorts", while probably pretty good, are going to be in short supply and a little out of practice as ammo grows ever shorter.

With the degradation of communications, loss of satnav/GPS systems, and wearing out of virtually everything else, it's unlikely in the extreme that the accuracy IRL of today, or even 15 years ago, would be even close to achievable.

[.45cultist]

In V1 there was a module or Challenge adventure where the artillery was manned by veterans found in refugee camps. Perhaps it was "Rock in Troubled Waters" article that supported "Armies of the Night". Those were 105's, but the principle is the same for other systems, especially stored older stock.

[Legbreaker]

Challenge #34 has a good article on mortars but nothing in it as far as rules, etc.

From "Rock in troubled waters", Challenge #42

301st Independent Battery: This unit is currently providing fire support for Cape May Naval Base, staffed with 80 ex-military "graybeards" culled from the refugees. In addition to small arms, the unit has three M202 howitzers and six 120mm mortars salvaged from national guard and army reserve armouries.

There's nothing else in the article re old artillery systems.