Why no China?

[kalos72]

Has anyone spent anytime on the Chinese forces?

I find it blaringly obvious that China is totally absent from ANY detailed works.

[Legbreaker]

Well, since the Soviets basically blasted them off the face of the planet with nukes, does it really matter that much? Whatever's left surely can't be all that organised, or in significantly large numbers.
Looking at the timeline info, it would appear China suffered very, very badly and in effect knocked back to the stone age. A radioactive, badly cratered stone age at that.

[kalos72]

Is there a list of China nuke targets?

They had like 1 million troops back then I think...I doubt they get nuked that badly.

[Legbreaker]

No list anywhere in the books.

In the West, they are used sparingly at first, and for the first week are used only against troop concentrations no further than 50 kilometres from the Soviet border. In the Far East, however, they are used on a massive scale. Chinese mechanized columns are vaporized, caught in the open on the roads in imagined pursuit. Strike aircraft deliver warheads on the northern Chinese population and industrial centres still in Chinese hands. The Chinese response is immediate, but Soviet forward troop units are dispersed and well prepared. Ballistic missile attacks on Soviet population centres are frustrated by an active and efficient ABM system, and the Soviet Air Defence Command massacres the handful of Chinese bombers that attempted low-level penetration raids. Within a week, the Chinese riposte is spent, but Soviet attacks continue. The Chinese communication and transportation system, already stretched to the breaking point, disintegrates. The roads are choked with refugees fleeing from the remaining cities, all of them potential targets. China begins the rapid slide into anarchy and civil disorder.

Note that all starts on the 9th of July 1997 and we hear nothing more about China in the timeline. The implication is China's war is over for all practical purposes.
We do see in the Survivors Guide to the UK that "Canton and the port of Hong Kong have been destroyed by small nuclear strikes" - the UK 6th Infantry Division (heavily damaged in the earlier strikes) withdrew there.

[Olefin]

Actually Chinese forces are mentioned a couple of other places - the retreat by the US Army into Korea happened after they had met up with Chinese forces and then were attacked in the same series of nuclear attacks that destroyed the Chinese forces

And the Soviet Army books detail that they are still fighting marauders in the areas they occupied - those marauders are most likely remnant Chinese units which may or may not have some sense of organization left to them - or may be like the Soviet units that fell apart in Europe and are basically just bandits with better weapons

There most likely are Chinese units that are still intact and functional - but completely cut off from any higher command and thus are basically functioning on their own - i.e. in places the Soviets would not have nuked - in that way they may be like the 43rd as described in Last Submarine - still a military unit, still with a functional command structure but not answering to anyone but their commander

[Olefin]

Actually one interesting idea would be if Taiwan had re-invaded to try to establish an area of control based on a surviving small port in an attempt to rebuild control over China or at least part of it - their military would be intact - the biggest question for them would be fuel supplies

[kalos72]

I just find it very odd that, with the largest military in the world, they simply vanished into marauder groups.

I found about 8 targets, all port cities really. But other writing has Hong Kong getting spared..."major coastal cities such as Shanghai, Guangzhou, Ningbo, Nanjing, Gingdao, Tianjin, Ginghuangdao, and Dalian".

"Inexplicably, Hong Kong and Macau escaped nuclear destruction, but today are near ghost towns and pirate refuges".

Anyone have any ORBATS for China?

[Rainbow Six]

One of the earlier issues of Challenge (I can't remember which one specifically but it's probably somewhere between 28-33) had an article on the USSR (V1 timeline) which had some passing references to China. The most salient quote is probably this (it's also the last mention of China in the article)

On July 9, the first tactical strikes against the NATO armies in Poland were launched. In the Far East much less discrimination was used against the Chinese. The large scale use of nuclear weapons ended the war in China. The Chinese were literally blasted back to the Middle Ages. With civilian and military authority gone, the Chinese slipped back into a system of warlord-type states. The end of the war in the East allowed the Soviets to release forces that were badly needed back in Europe. With the war over in the East. many of the divisions there did not look kindly on the new orders commining (sic) them to another round of combat. A wave of desertion and rebellion again swept the Soviet forces in the East.

That would suggest to me that they did indeed get nuked that badly and also (imo) supports the possibility of some Chinese units still being intact but operating autonomously. It also suggests (imo) that there might also be significant numbers of Soviet troops on Chinese soil also acting autonomously. It's probably not too much of a stretch to suppose that some marauder 'armies' may be made of Soviet and Chinese troops.

There's also a few references to China in Rae's Korean sourcebook all of which, as far as I can tell, support the view that China has been hit harder than any other major belligerent (Rae, feel free to correct me if that's wrong).

Others' mileage may vary of course. With regards Taiwan, I'm not aware it's mentioned anywhere in any published source other than a one line mention in Rae's Korean Sourcebook that sheds no light on whether their military is intact or not.

Re: Hong Kong, Legbreaker's earlier quote from the SGUK confirms that it was nuked but only relatively lightly.

[shrike6]

One thing that you guys haven't touched on in this is that the Soviets called in the Warsaw Pact nations to help against the Chinese as well. With some significant damages to the WP units sent. So it is not out of the realm of possiblity that there are East German, Polish and et al. mauraders as well in the mix.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by shrike6

One thing that you guys haven't touched on in this is that the Soviets called in the Warsaw Pact nations to help against the Chinese as well. With some significant damages to the WP units sent. So it is not out of the realm of possiblity that there are East German, Polish and et al. mauraders as well in the mix.

Yeah, that's a valid point. The V2 Soviet Vehicle guide mentions Polish and (I think) Bulgarian units trying to make their way home, some of whom could have turned marauder, and I'm sure at some point in time there was a whole thread about the East Germans.

It's not impossible you could also have British and American marauders, the former from the 6th Division, the latter from the units that reached the Yalu.

[Olefin]

If there is one place you could have a completely mixed up marauder unit with just about every type of equipment and nationality you can think of its China

Just imagine a marauder unit made up of the following:

surviving Chinese troops from a unit or units that got nuked

Soviet troops that deserted or the unit fell apart from literally every nationality and location in the Soviet Union

escaped American and South Korean POW's or survivors of units that got overrun

Polish, Hungarian, Bulgarians or East Germans that said screw this and decided to either get home or go off on their own - or who were prisoners of the Chinese and escaped or were let go when everything went to hell after the nuke strikes

Gurkhas from the British unit that got nuked near the Yalu

North Korean's that are survivors of the units that got driven north of the Yalu and decided they wanted nothing more to do with the war

and using the Korean Sourcebook you can add in possibly Australian, New Zealand or Japanese troops that were POW's and busted out of some godforsaken POW camp in North China

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

One of the earlier issues of Challenge (I can't remember which one specifically but it's probably somewhere between 28-33) had an article on the USSR (V1 timeline) which had some passing references to China. The most salient quote is probably this (it's also the last mention of China in the article)

Challenge 31 Page 4

[Olefin]

Keep in mind the that Challenge Article may or may not be not be exactly canon (i.e. some what it describes about the Ukraine and other areas) - but it is a very good description of what happened to China from the nuclear strikes

[Olefin]

Has anyone ever even tried to put together a list of Chinese nuclear targets?

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Yeah, that's a valid point. The V2 Soviet Vehicle guide mentions Polish and (I think) Bulgarian units trying to make their way home, some of whom could have turned marauder, and I'm sure at some point in time there was a whole thread about the East Germans.

It's not impossible you could also have British and American marauders, the former from the 6th Division, the latter from the units that reached the Yalu.

As well as other nationalities alot of countries were not really covered in the book. So its entirely possible that the Phillipines or some other third world countries, like countries of Latin America, sent some troops to Korea to help the US as well. So there may be a handful of escaped POWs from El Salvador as well for instance. Cause the Korean War had more than the Koreas, China and US in it.

[Olefin]

Some information is available online to give a general idea of China's forces

https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...na/pla-org.htm

Looked thru the information there and found some stuff that could help put together a picture of the Chinese Army

The Chinese military divides its units into two categories, Category A and Category B. Category A covers "full-training units" with complete armaments and full establishment. They have modern armaments, and undergo full-time, high-intensity military training. Category B units are "non-full-training units" which have out-of-date armaments, are under-manned, have low budgets, receive less training, often participate in productive labor, and have to have their weapons replaced and receive basic training before they can go into battle. China's Category B units are similar to the US National Guard.

As of the late 1980s the strength of the Category A units of the Chinese ground force was about 700,000, grouped into seven rapid response group armies (the 1st Army, 13th Army, 21st Army, 27th Army, 38th Army, 39th Army, and the 54th Army). Category B (Category 1 reserve) units of the Chinese ground force were in 19 group armies, 60 motorized infantry divisions, and some independent artillery divisions (or brigades).

As of the late 1980s main forces included about 35 group armies, comprising 118 infantry divisions, 13 armored divisions, 17 artillery divisions, 16 antiaircraft artillery divisions, plus 71 independent regiments and 21 independent battalions of mostly support troops (artillery, antiaircraft artillery, signal, antichemical warfare, reconnaissance, and engineer).

Regional forces consisted of 73 divisions of border defense and garrison troops plus 140 independent regiments.

As a result of the troop reductions announced in the July 1998 White Paper on National Defense, a number of PLA Divisions have been transfered to the PAP. By the late 1990s the Army had been reduced to 24-25 Group Armies incorporating a total of 90 divisions. Of these Armies, 17 are deployed in the north and northeast, positioned to repel Russia from the north, and Japan and Western powers from the east and over the Korean Peninsula.

People's Armed Police (PAP) was created in 1983 when the PLA transferred most of its internal police and border responsibilities to the new force. The PAP is still primarily composed of demobilized PLA personnel. As a result of the 1,000,000-man reduction in the PLA in the 1980s, the People's Armed Police grew by about 500,000 troops, to a total of roughly 800,000.

[Olefin]

An order of Battle I found at the same web site - UI means unidentified unit - i.e. they didnt know the unit designation

[Olefin]

from the same link above as well as other sites including the wikipedia entry which heavily draws on Warden, Robert L.; Savada, Andrea; Dolan, Ronald;; Library of Congress, Federal Research Division (1988). "China: A Country Study". pp. 582–3

Under the system used in the 1980's that the game designers based the Chinese Army on for the game a field army consisted of three partially motorized infantry divisions and two regiments of artillery and anti-aircraft artillery.

Each field army division had over 12,000 personnel in three infantry regiments, one artillery regiment, one armored regiment, and one anti-aircraft artillery battalion. Each division was supposed to have its own armor and artillery but there was very little information to actually show was actual equipment levels they had.

In 1987 the new, main-force group armies typically included 46,300 soldiers in up to four divisions, believed to include infantry, armor, artillery, air defense, airborne, and air support elements. Those mobile armies were supposed to be mobile and capable of combined arms operations but because there was a lack of mechanization they still mostly consisted of foot infantry, usually transported by trucks at best, with armor and artillery support.

The 13 armored divisions each had 3 regiments and 240 main battle tanks but most didnt have much in the way of mechanized infantry support or APC's and tanks were used often as mobile artillery. There was some self-propelled artillery but rocket launchers were more often what was used for fire support.

Engineering equipment was available but there wasnt a lot of mine-laying or mine-clearing equipment which left the Chinese formations vulnerable to mine fields.

Artillery was mostly towed guns, howitzers and truck mounted multiple rocket launchers

Regional forces - i.e. independent divisions - were used as garrison units, mostly being static units to defend cities, coastlines or borders, and were artillery heavy but lacking in armor or transport. They were also used to train militia as well

Keep in mind that there are close to three million members of the People's Liberation Army Militia as well

Thus given the size of their military and adding in the Police and Militia you can see why no attempt to ever release a Chinese Army book was ever done - especially considering by 2000 there wasnt a Chinese Army anymore

[Olefin]

So as an example lets use the 205th Infantry Division - this is a unit that would have definitely been part of the fighting with the Soviets in 1995-1996

Originally the 28th Division the division was renamed as the 205th Infantry Division in 1985 and transferred to the 28th Army after the 69th Army Corps was disbanded. It consisted of the following units:

613th Motorized Infantry Regiment;
614th Motorized Infantry Regiment;
615th Motorized Infantry Regiment;
Tank Regiment which would have had around 80 main battle tanks - most likely Type 59 and Type 59-1 tanks (i.e. a Chinese copy of the T-54A)
Artillery Regiment;
Anti-aircraft Artillery Regiment.

The division was a Category A division and stationed with the 28th Group Army at Shanxi District in the city of Datong.

If you were creating a history for it you could have it involved in any stage of the Soviet Chinese War and possibly be one of the units that got nuked by the Soviets during the destruction of the Chinese Army. Thus you could have men from this unit be used as a basis for a marauder group in a campaign based in China or Mongolia

[kalos72]

My drive to figure out China is that I am working on an idea for the reunification of Korea against the Russians and if there are still viable Chinese units to support the endeavor.

I can't imagine there aren't any units left, however their loyalty of course is questionable.

[Legbreaker]

My understanding is any units still in something resembling one piece are in the southern parts of the country. The northern parts, which abuts Korea, are pock marked with nuclear craters and ghosts.

[Olefin]

I would say that there would be remnant units in Northern China - face it there were Soviet units that got nuked pretty badly as well - some of them were completely destroyed others were taken down to very low levels (as were American units - 2nd Armored for instance)

Thus could there be functioning remnant units - yes - but there is no higher authority for them to answer to except for various warlords

I would say that if there is any functioning armies or divisions that are left that Legbreaker is correct in that they would be in the central to southern areas of China away from the areas that got nuked - and mostly they would be garrison type units - as any Category A units or units that got updated to Category A during the war were probably all at the front fighting the Soviets and pretty much got nuked - example would be the Army reserve division that is on Hainan - most likely it came thru intact

[Olefin]

FYI - I think that if there ever really is anything on China that would even be close to approaching a sourcebook it either needs to be one that is more like a historical document - i.e. close to stuff that Chico and others have done trying to make a history of the war - or it needs to be a July 2000 or April 2001 China and show more what is still left and not what they had

i.e. not here is the 125 divisions that China used to have - its more like here are the 20 remnant divisions and/or warlord forces that are left

[Legbreaker]

And those Divisions are probably at around 10% strength at best I'd think. Certainly not capable of offensive action, and probably barely able to defend themselves against a decent sized marauder band.

[kalos72]

I guess I am just staggered by the assumptions,with not alot of canon to go from, that 3.7m Chinese troops all got nuked to 10%.

120ish divisions got nuked? Thats more tonnage then landed on the whole US...assuming one nuke per division.

And now the Soviets hold the entire country with like 20 divisions?

IDK, not trying to be a dick but that all seems REALLY convenient vs RL factual.

Now losing central command and breaking into marauding little kingdoms? Sure...but with no capacity to defend themselves at 10% total prewar manpower? I cant get there...

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by kalos72

I guess I am just staggered by the assumptions, with not alot of canon to go from, that 3.7m Chinese troops all got nuked to 10%.

That 10% is my suggestion for those few units still in the north. Note that's not really all that different to those in Europe, with some "Divisions" down from roughly 10,000+ men to perhaps a few hundred - worse than 10% left.

Originally Posted by kalos72

120ish divisions got nuked? Thats more tonnage then landed on the whole US...assuming one nuke per division.

The Soviets were not mucking about. Remember what was happening in July 1997 - the Pact forces were being pushed back on all fronts and Nato was on Soviet soil with not much in front of them to stop them from continuing.
The Soviets were looking to END their involvement on at least one front, and China being somewhat short of actual allies, was (in my opinion) the logical choice, especially as the Chinese have never had much in the way of nuclear weapons themselves to retaliate with.
Hit the Chinese HARD, inflict grievous casualties and you free up quite a few battle hardened veteran units to send west.
Another factor which may have been considered is global wind patterns. Generally any fallout from China will stay away from the USSR, however anything from Europe could impact them.
https://earth.nullschool.net/#curren...3.00,43.23,683

Originally Posted by kalos72

And now the Soviets hold the entire country with like 20 divisions?

I don't think they're "holding" the country, more just acting as a screen on the off chance a few Chinese units pull together something resembling an effective force.

Originally Posted by kalos72

Sure...but with no capacity to defend themselves at 10% total prewar manpower? I cant get there...

Note again there's units, many of them, in Europe at or below 10%. I'm actually thinking that's a fairly high percentage for Chinese units, unless that includes local recruits and civilian support.

Another point to bear in mind is the Chinese military isn't all actual combat troops and their supply train. There's quite a large number who have virtually no combat training and are actually employed running factories, farms, acting as police, road construction, etc. Technically they're military, but in reality they're just civilians in uniform.

[Olefin]

Also keep in mind that the Soviets arent occupying all of China - far from it - in fact they hold relatively little of the country

Soviet Vehicle Guide

1st Far Eastern Front - Manchuria
2nd Far Eastern Front - Mongolia
Yalu Front - Korea

The 1st and 2nd Far Eastern Front have 13 divisions and 2 brigades between them, the Yalu front three divisions, a regiment and a brigade

So basically they went on a mission to grab off Manchuria and expand the size of their holdings around Mongolia - not grab the whole country

1st Far Eastern Front

Most of the units just say Manchuria (23rd Motorized is in Tsitsihar (Qiqihar) Manchuria (Heilongjiang Province) along with the 100th Motorized)

2nd Far Eastern Front

11th Tank is in Mongolia fighting separatists and the three Motorized Rifle are all there too

so the vast majority of China is not occupied by the Soviets

also keep in mind that the Soviet units arent exactly undamaged either - 3rd Tank has 500 men and 2 tanks, 50th Airmobile has 200 men, 98th has 300 men, 49th Tank has 2000 men and no tanks, 91st Motorized has 200 men and no tanks

6th Tank and 34th Motorized are probably the best equipped divisions they have left in the Far East - 4000 men and 36 tanks each and both are Category I

[Legbreaker]

As you can see, the Soviet's have in some cases just 2-3% of their initial numbers, and they're the winners!

[Olefin]

Its not much of a victory when you have 200 guys still on their feet out of an entire division

FYI - one reason any book would be hard to write is the lack of information from China about that time - there is very little information out there and some of it contradicts itself - even on the TOE of what a Chinese division would have - i.e. whereas the Soviet, US, British and Kenyan forces had a lot more info to work with to get accurate sourcebooks on them

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Its not much of a victory when you have 200 guys still on their feet out of an entire division.

And that tells you the Chinese are in so much worse condition doesn't it....
If they weren't the Soviets wouldn't have withdrawn so many units. They'd probably have had to keep sending reinforcements.
The whole point of them plastering Northern China with nukes was to wipe out the Chinese forces and free up probably hundreds of thousands of troops (plus untold numbers of support units, vehicles and supplies) and send them to other theatres, mainly Europe, but I believe (without double checking) some went to the Middle East and potentially Korea.