Why no China?

[Rainbow Six]

One of the earlier issues of Challenge (I can't remember which one specifically but it's probably somewhere between 28-33) had an article on the USSR (V1 timeline) which had some passing references to China. The most salient quote is probably this (it's also the last mention of China in the article)

On July 9, the first tactical strikes against the NATO armies in Poland were launched. In the Far East much less discrimination was used against the Chinese. The large scale use of nuclear weapons ended the war in China. The Chinese were literally blasted back to the Middle Ages. With civilian and military authority gone, the Chinese slipped back into a system of warlord-type states. The end of the war in the East allowed the Soviets to release forces that were badly needed back in Europe. With the war over in the East. many of the divisions there did not look kindly on the new orders commining (sic) them to another round of combat. A wave of desertion and rebellion again swept the Soviet forces in the East.

That would suggest to me that they did indeed get nuked that badly and also (imo) supports the possibility of some Chinese units still being intact but operating autonomously. It also suggests (imo) that there might also be significant numbers of Soviet troops on Chinese soil also acting autonomously. It's probably not too much of a stretch to suppose that some marauder 'armies' may be made of Soviet and Chinese troops.

There's also a few references to China in Rae's Korean sourcebook all of which, as far as I can tell, support the view that China has been hit harder than any other major belligerent (Rae, feel free to correct me if that's wrong).

Others' mileage may vary of course. With regards Taiwan, I'm not aware it's mentioned anywhere in any published source other than a one line mention in Rae's Korean Sourcebook that sheds no light on whether their military is intact or not.

Re: Hong Kong, Legbreaker's earlier quote from the SGUK confirms that it was nuked but only relatively lightly.

[shrike6]

One thing that you guys haven't touched on in this is that the Soviets called in the Warsaw Pact nations to help against the Chinese as well. With some significant damages to the WP units sent. So it is not out of the realm of possiblity that there are East German, Polish and et al. mauraders as well in the mix.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by shrike6

One thing that you guys haven't touched on in this is that the Soviets called in the Warsaw Pact nations to help against the Chinese as well. With some significant damages to the WP units sent. So it is not out of the realm of possiblity that there are East German, Polish and et al. mauraders as well in the mix.

Yeah, that's a valid point. The V2 Soviet Vehicle guide mentions Polish and (I think) Bulgarian units trying to make their way home, some of whom could have turned marauder, and I'm sure at some point in time there was a whole thread about the East Germans.

It's not impossible you could also have British and American marauders, the former from the 6th Division, the latter from the units that reached the Yalu.

[Olefin]

If there is one place you could have a completely mixed up marauder unit with just about every type of equipment and nationality you can think of its China

Just imagine a marauder unit made up of the following:

surviving Chinese troops from a unit or units that got nuked

Soviet troops that deserted or the unit fell apart from literally every nationality and location in the Soviet Union

escaped American and South Korean POW's or survivors of units that got overrun

Polish, Hungarian, Bulgarians or East Germans that said screw this and decided to either get home or go off on their own - or who were prisoners of the Chinese and escaped or were let go when everything went to hell after the nuke strikes

Gurkhas from the British unit that got nuked near the Yalu

North Korean's that are survivors of the units that got driven north of the Yalu and decided they wanted nothing more to do with the war

and using the Korean Sourcebook you can add in possibly Australian, New Zealand or Japanese troops that were POW's and busted out of some godforsaken POW camp in North China

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Yeah, that's a valid point. The V2 Soviet Vehicle guide mentions Polish and (I think) Bulgarian units trying to make their way home, some of whom could have turned marauder, and I'm sure at some point in time there was a whole thread about the East Germans.

It's not impossible you could also have British and American marauders, the former from the 6th Division, the latter from the units that reached the Yalu.

As well as other nationalities alot of countries were not really covered in the book. So its entirely possible that the Phillipines or some other third world countries, like countries of Latin America, sent some troops to Korea to help the US as well. So there may be a handful of escaped POWs from El Salvador as well for instance. Cause the Korean War had more than the Koreas, China and US in it.

[Olefin]

Some information is available online to give a general idea of China's forces

https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...na/pla-org.htm

Looked thru the information there and found some stuff that could help put together a picture of the Chinese Army

The Chinese military divides its units into two categories, Category A and Category B. Category A covers "full-training units" with complete armaments and full establishment. They have modern armaments, and undergo full-time, high-intensity military training. Category B units are "non-full-training units" which have out-of-date armaments, are under-manned, have low budgets, receive less training, often participate in productive labor, and have to have their weapons replaced and receive basic training before they can go into battle. China's Category B units are similar to the US National Guard.

As of the late 1980s the strength of the Category A units of the Chinese ground force was about 700,000, grouped into seven rapid response group armies (the 1st Army, 13th Army, 21st Army, 27th Army, 38th Army, 39th Army, and the 54th Army). Category B (Category 1 reserve) units of the Chinese ground force were in 19 group armies, 60 motorized infantry divisions, and some independent artillery divisions (or brigades).

As of the late 1980s main forces included about 35 group armies, comprising 118 infantry divisions, 13 armored divisions, 17 artillery divisions, 16 antiaircraft artillery divisions, plus 71 independent regiments and 21 independent battalions of mostly support troops (artillery, antiaircraft artillery, signal, antichemical warfare, reconnaissance, and engineer).

Regional forces consisted of 73 divisions of border defense and garrison troops plus 140 independent regiments.

As a result of the troop reductions announced in the July 1998 White Paper on National Defense, a number of PLA Divisions have been transfered to the PAP. By the late 1990s the Army had been reduced to 24-25 Group Armies incorporating a total of 90 divisions. Of these Armies, 17 are deployed in the north and northeast, positioned to repel Russia from the north, and Japan and Western powers from the east and over the Korean Peninsula.

People's Armed Police (PAP) was created in 1983 when the PLA transferred most of its internal police and border responsibilities to the new force. The PAP is still primarily composed of demobilized PLA personnel. As a result of the 1,000,000-man reduction in the PLA in the 1980s, the People's Armed Police grew by about 500,000 troops, to a total of roughly 800,000.

[Olefin]

An order of Battle I found at the same web site - UI means unidentified unit - i.e. they didnt know the unit designation

[Olefin]

from the same link above as well as other sites including the wikipedia entry which heavily draws on Warden, Robert L.; Savada, Andrea; Dolan, Ronald;; Library of Congress, Federal Research Division (1988). "China: A Country Study". pp. 582–3

Under the system used in the 1980's that the game designers based the Chinese Army on for the game a field army consisted of three partially motorized infantry divisions and two regiments of artillery and anti-aircraft artillery.

Each field army division had over 12,000 personnel in three infantry regiments, one artillery regiment, one armored regiment, and one anti-aircraft artillery battalion. Each division was supposed to have its own armor and artillery but there was very little information to actually show was actual equipment levels they had.

In 1987 the new, main-force group armies typically included 46,300 soldiers in up to four divisions, believed to include infantry, armor, artillery, air defense, airborne, and air support elements. Those mobile armies were supposed to be mobile and capable of combined arms operations but because there was a lack of mechanization they still mostly consisted of foot infantry, usually transported by trucks at best, with armor and artillery support.

The 13 armored divisions each had 3 regiments and 240 main battle tanks but most didnt have much in the way of mechanized infantry support or APC's and tanks were used often as mobile artillery. There was some self-propelled artillery but rocket launchers were more often what was used for fire support.

Engineering equipment was available but there wasnt a lot of mine-laying or mine-clearing equipment which left the Chinese formations vulnerable to mine fields.

Artillery was mostly towed guns, howitzers and truck mounted multiple rocket launchers

Regional forces - i.e. independent divisions - were used as garrison units, mostly being static units to defend cities, coastlines or borders, and were artillery heavy but lacking in armor or transport. They were also used to train militia as well

Keep in mind that there are close to three million members of the People's Liberation Army Militia as well

Thus given the size of their military and adding in the Police and Militia you can see why no attempt to ever release a Chinese Army book was ever done - especially considering by 2000 there wasnt a Chinese Army anymore

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

One of the earlier issues of Challenge (I can't remember which one specifically but it's probably somewhere between 28-33) had an article on the USSR (V1 timeline) which had some passing references to China. The most salient quote is probably this (it's also the last mention of China in the article)

Challenge 31 Page 4

[Olefin]

Keep in mind the that Challenge Article may or may not be not be exactly canon (i.e. some what it describes about the Ukraine and other areas) - but it is a very good description of what happened to China from the nuclear strikes

[Olefin]

Has anyone ever even tried to put together a list of Chinese nuclear targets?