Perma-bans for some people?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Okay, so I read the ban notice about Olefin and yeah he over-reacts at times and he blindly rushes in with both eyes firmly shut and has absolutely no concept of diplomacy but...

A permanent ban?
Really?
Have we become so intolerant that someone throwing a tantrum has become "too hard" to deal with?
Have we decided censorship is the best solution to dealing with things we don't want to hear?

Yes Olefin is a bit of a dropkick at times because he doesn't comprehend diplomacy and can't keep his mouth shut and yes I have had full on fights with him in the past the could have got nasty but I truly believe a permanent ban is completely unwarranted.

Temporary bans? Okay, sure thing and hopefully the malefactor learns a lesson or three.
But permanent ban?
I cannot see that this would do anything good for this community.

It will end up exactly like the facebook group run by that woman whose attitude is "do it my way or fuck off".
What the hell happened to letting people have a chance to speak their mind and no I am not suggesting for a second that this means they don't have to take responsibility for whatever crap they spew up.

Olefin is passionate about the game, far too passionate for my tastes some times but he does love it dearly. If he is perma-banned then great, we can all feel happy that someone who has trouble learning tact has been punished but it poisons this community. Everyone will be wondering if they can voice a valid opinion or if they should keep their mouth shut for fear of being banned.

I strongly urge the moderators to NOT issue a permanent ban against Olefin. He's venting his rage and been a bit of an idiot but he has not caused the migration away from the forums that LAW did many years ago and I will sink the boot in, LAW was allowed to continue his childish insults of many people on the forum without much punishment but those who stood up to his bullying often received bans - they were the victims not the instigators yet it appeared to some of us that LAW was given preferential treatment. It really felt that the Mods were playing favourites.
That damaged our community far more than Olefin's carry on ever has.
The fact that some of us remember it means it had more impact than it ever should have.

LAW was poison for this community, Olefin is a hothead and a dumbarse.
I am VERY glad LAW is no longer part of this community but for all his faults, Olefin has never personally insulted me or challenged me to a physical fight, two things that LAW did often enough that I left this forum and when I came back it was with a new identity.
I felt I needed to do that because it felt that some people were allowed to do whatever they wished while others, committing lesser offences got absolutely hammered for it.
I REALLY do not want to see that sort of thing happening again.

[Lurken]

I am relatively fresh faced here, compared to the Old Guard here. So many of the references are unknown to me.

But, I have seen how Spartan-117 got 1 week for his personal attacks. And Olefin got 3 months for well... unrelenting ragging on the newest edition, defending his hobby and passion, well with... too much passion?

What should I, as a relatively fresh faced member here take from this?

[pansarskott]

Warning calls, warning shots, fire for effect

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2961

A ban does not come out of the blue, I hope.

[CraigD6er]

Temporary or permanent banning is a hard call for the mods to make. As gamers we tend to rightly be passionate about our interests; this seems particularly so for more niche games such as these where forums and active/semi-active players are far fewer in number than for the more popular games (D&D/Pathfinder, Traveller etc). We are passionate because we care, and because we are a small community without the massive resources and supplements of other games. Without such passion, would Twilight 2000 have made it as far as V4? Would The Morrow Project have been so recently updated? Would this forum even still be running? Passion is fine, even necessary, in this hobby as much as anything else but there is always a fine line that once crossed can lead to offence. The best thing is always to draft your post/response and reread it, several times if necessary, before actually posting it here or anywhere else on line. Don’t type ‘live’ on a forum unless you are very sure of what you are doing. Step back and think about whether your passion may be someone else’s offence. If there is any doubt that your post might cause offence, review, rewrite, even just plain don’t do it. In that way hopefully many of the more volatile comments may be filtered out before seeing the light of day. It is very difficult to properly judge mood from texts or emails compared with face to face speech. What may be said with an amused tone or expression in real life does not convey the same in printed form. Should we ostracize someone for defending their views of the game? No, absolutely not. Should we ban, at least temporarily, someone for getting too personal in their comments? Yes, certainly, because there is no need or excuse for it. However the problem is just what is the definition of too personal? We all take comments differently; for one it may be light hearted for another it may be insulting. So we need to be more careful with our posts and also maybe a little more thoughtful before we start responding. As Raellus has posted it behoves us all to keep it civil and constructive. If you can’t do that, then should anyone else be subject to the abuse just because you can’t be civil? No. Should we permanently ban people for continual infractions? Probably after a certain time it may become obvious that temporary bans aren’t working, but maybe there should be incremental bans first? First offence is 1 week, second is 1 month, third is 6 months etc. Is the alternative for the mods to see each post before it goes live? Is that the sort of option that has to be considered? I wouldn’t want that and I’m very sure the mods don’t want it. We are all I hope adult enough to know that there have to be some rules, some effort to control what is said and done and some standards that are expected of us to continue to be part of this community. They are quite clearly laid out on the forum. Let’s hope we can abide by those rules without forcing the mods to use the nuclear option on anyone.
(did I read this before posting? Yes. Will I find something I'd change if I'd read it again before posting? Almost certainly, because it's hard to get it exactly right!)

[Tegyrius]

I am one of those who did not participate heavily here for several years because of the tolerance shown to LAW not just by the forum staff but by the broader community. During my last exchange of views with Olefin, I received several messages of support stating that he has, in fact, caused them to withdraw from active participation. SSC, I strongly dispute your assertion that he hasn't harmed the community. His behavior may not have been as aggressive and extreme as LAW's but I'm not sure our benchmark should be someone who was literally able to threaten assault with mods on copy and get away with it. I believe this state of affairs persisted as long as it did, at least in part, because of a mod staff that was near-totally absent until this summer's reorganization. In other words, if more than one mod had been consistently active, I don't think we'd be here now. While acknowledging that I am not objective in this due to my own history with him, I'm glad to see most of the current team stepping up.

To the broader permaban issue, I believe any mod decision needs to take into account the totality of a user's post history, not just each incident in isolation. Otherwise, the mods have no capacity for escalating discipline when repeated lower-level corrective measures have failed to resolve an issue.

I will also point out that the concept of a permaban should not be new to anyone. The second post in the sticky Forum Guidelines thread, with a last-edited date of 22 Aug 2020, has this to say on the matter:

Originally Posted by Raellus

Consequences for Ignoring or Violating Forum Guidelines

If you choose to violate forum guidelines, you will probably receive a warning before more serious administrative action is taken. Repeated or egregious violations of forum guidelines will result in a ban. Bans are usually temporary, but repeat offenders could be banned permanently so please, be cool.

As I pointed out to some of the mods during this summer's events, and as as Spartan-117 recently and expertly highlighted, this community is likely to experience an influx of new members as a result of 4th Edition. The question before us is what sort of community we want this to be. The corollary is whether we want this to be a community that keeps new members or an echo chamber that circulates the same twelve threads until the heat death of the internet. The level of abrasive and abusive behavior we are willing to tolerate, whether in individual incidents or as part of a sustained trend, will go a long way toward determining that.

- C.

[Targan]

The moderators won't be posting details of their discussions in open forum, but I assure you that no disciplinary action is taken lightly by the mods.

[mpipes]

I was hesitant to chime in, but I will.

Olefin is VERY passionate. Thus of us who have been here a while know this.

Why a lot of what Olefin posted regarding Alpha was bombastic, does it really deserve a two month ban? Of note, he DID NOT insult or belittle or in any way attack fellow Forum members for their post; something that would indeed deserve a ban.

In my opinion, FL has pulled a "bait and switch" with a lot of T2K fans that love the game. The V4, as I recall the pitch, was to be an update and upgrade with compatibility with the previous edition and published materials. A lot of people on the forum devoted considerable time and effort to help FL get the project off the ground and help with development in light of this promise. Quite a few did play testing. FL held out hints that some that have published material - like Olefin - would be able to market new supplements they wrote. FL leveraged a lot of this activity to get their Kickstarter campaign funded, and lets face it, a LOT of Forum members contributed to KS.

What did we end up with? The Alpha is what. FL ignored much of the hard work and CONSTRUCTIVE feedback from this community to produce an Alpha with clunky mechanics and a backstory that reeks of both anti-American and anti-NATO biases that ends up making the Soviets the "good guys," and this after they invaded the Baltics and Poland triggering the war; not to mention invading Sweden and the UK (after nuking the UK into the dark ages of course). Frankly, the way I read it, they allowed a lot of personal political leanings to bleed into the draft that were inevitably going to upset long-time fans that expected an Alpha that comported with their marketing. In my humble opinion, what FL delivered did not match up with their promises and wildly missed the mark.

I don't know if Olefin contributed to Kickstarter, spent hours playtesting, or was given vague hints of "yes, we want you to write stuff and will pay you for it" or not. The point is that at least some here did and were unceremoniously ignored and misused, and rightly, I think, feel betrayed and lied to and have every right to be bitter and vent.

In my opinion, Olefin has done nothing more than give in to the heartfelt frustration and anger that many feel and vented - hard - and not without justification. Given this unique situation, I just don't know that these posts should have triggered a ban; certainly not a permanent ban. All that said, I respect the Moderators' judgment, and of course, the general membership has no idea what was discussed behind the scenes.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Targan

The moderators won't be posting details of their discussions in open forum, but I assure you that no disciplinary action is taken lightly by the mods.

As it should be, in all particulars.

- C.

Originally Posted by mpipes

In my opinion, Olefin has done nothing more than give in to the heartfelt frustration and anger that many feel and vented - hard - and not without justification. Given this unique situation, I just don't know that these posts should have triggered a ban; certainly not a permanent ban. All that said, I respect the Moderators' judgment, and of course, the general membership has no idea what was discussed behind the scenes.

Why is this board NOW a place for group therapy and dealing with someone's poor anger management skills when it wasn't the board for that when dealing with someone's 'alleged*' narcissism earlier this year...

We've all got disappointments in life - not all of us are dumping and dumping and dumping them on to a message board to deal with them.

So people just get to rage (or endlessly self promote, or %Fill_in_the_blank_bad_behavior%) here and no one gets to call them out because THE DUMPER has emotions? What if I'm having lots of emotions about Olefin... should I post them here in rapid fire format filled with large fonts? If not, why are mine less relevant?

*I'm trying to be real good here.. I'm not calling anyone a narcissist today, just providing historical context.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Okay, before anyone else who is guilty of poor behaviour in the past starts stepping up to claim a free pass.

1. I never asked for Olefin to be given a free pass for his bad behaviour.
2. Olefin was being an arse, there's no doubt about that but he did not make personal attacks against people on this forum.
3. All that I said is I believe a permanent ban for Olefin is not warranted for this situation.
4. I also never suggested that someone exhibiting bad behaviour should not be called out for bad behaviour.

I see people here, even today, who get away with snide comments and subtle insults against other members and very little is done about it. Behind the scenes talk is that they are mates with some of the mods. You may doubt it, you can even call me a liar but people are talking about it and that is undermining the community.

[Raellus]

I understand and respect member concerns about site moderation. Please rest assured that decision to ban any user is not taken lightly.

To put this in perspective, in my 10 years on this forum, most of those serving as a moderator, only 5 users have ever received a ban. Not including Olefin's most recent ban, two of those five users were banned (temporarily) within the last six months.

I hesitate to turn this into a referendum on banning a particular user, but in the interest of transparency, I will share some of the factors that played into this ban decision.

Olefin's current ban was discussed and approved by the entire mod team (although there was some disagreement on the timing and length of said ban). It also has the support of our founding site admin. No ban has been enacted unilaterally. Olefin's case received due process.

When a user, after receiving multiple public, private, direct, and indirect warnings continues to persist in violating forum guidelines, a ban is both appropriate and merited. When a user is told, in no certain terms, to cease and desist from X, and then responds privately and publicly with, "I did nothing wrong and I will continue to do X", there's really little other choice. This was the case with Olefin.

Olefin has received a prior ban. IIRC, the duration was one month (it might have been longer). He has received more warnings than any other member in this forum's history. He has also generated the most reported [to the mod team] posts of any user on this forum ever. Both of those facts had to be taken into consideration. When a user who's received a prior ban, and numerous warnings, continues to flout forum guidelines, then stronger admin action is warranted. That is the case here.

It pains me that some members think that the mod team, and myself in particularly, has acted rashly, or unfairly. It also bothers me that members are defending Olefin's behavior. Most of us here are passionate fans of Twilight 2000, a few of us are also content creators, but most of us are also able and willing to consistently- and without prompting- follow the forum guidelines; very few of us are willing to ignore mod warnings. Passion does not justify or excuse bad behavior.

I take my role and responsibility as site admin very seriously. I am listening to feedback, both positive and negative, and reflecting on my actions. Moving forward, I will try to do a better job for all of you.

Peace,

Rae

-

[mpipes]

Raellus -

That sounds like a VERY fair process. I was not aware that was the protocol, and I am glad you shared it.

[Jason Weiser]

Disclaimer - I don't make these comments as a mod, but as a member. That said, I am a mod at all times on this board, so even though I don't intend to make comments in my role as a mod, I do intend to hold myself to the standard.

It's been a fairly ugly time on the board of late. And I want to apologize for that. I for one, and I speak for myself, feel that I have failed you as a user community.

Our job, like it or not, is to police this community. We don't get to lose our cool, or engage in flame wars. We can have friends here, and yes, enemies, but when it comes time to do our jobs, we must do them like the Terminator, swift, impartial, and without malice or feeling.

That's not to say anyone failed, or didn't. Whatever goes on behind the scenes, that's for us, the mod community to worry about. Our job is to make sure that never spills over onto the rest of you.

You deserve that much.

Now, I want to address the thoughts about what happened.

1. Olefin's ban - There was a lot of discussion. I won't name names either. And it was at times, pointed. Not heated, but pointed. Olefin, love him or hate him is a lightning rod. I've told him more than once he tends to damage his own cause. Considering I suffer from the same issue, I can sympathize. It's why I tend to sleep on major decisions. I have ADHD, so my executive decision making capability can be a bit...flawed. Not saying that makes me the best man for everything, but I am doing my damndest to make sure you all know I will do my job as I see it. To tell the truth, some of you have made comments that I heartily disagree with, but they didn't cross the line. So, as a Mod, I may not like em, but I gotta let them go. Sometimes, I see stuff I agree with that does cross a line and I gotta step in. Such was the case with Olefin of late. This brings me to point two...

2. V4 - Version 4 sadly, is turning into a trainwreck that many of us are forming an opinion on. There's a lot of theories on why this is happening. I have my own. Can we do each other a favor and not assume bad faith till we can prove it? I suspect there's a lot of things being overlooked and perhaps even some language issues going on here. I am trying to get an interview with Tomas for "500 Miles" so, we'll see where that goes. If that happens, I promise I will be asking some hard questions. Polite but hard. You all as a community deserve that much. I ask till then, please keep the powder dry?

3. Going Forward - We're having discussions about what we as mods can do better, and I suspect we'll all be doing things a little different after this. I can't say more than that. But rest assured, we will do our best by you. You deserve that.

[wolffhound79]

SO how long is is he banned for?

[pmulcahy11b]

I don't think Olefin deserves any permanent ban. He's high-strung, strident, and a bit acerbic, but he's not truly nasty like LAW was.

I think, though (if one of the mods haven't already done so), one of the mods should give Olefin a mild ration of shit in PM -- a stern talking to as a part of an explanation of his transgressions.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by wolffhound79

SO how long is is he banned for?

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=6118

-

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I think, though (if one of the mods haven't already done so), one of the mods should give Olefin a mild ration of shit in PM -- a stern talking to as a part of an explanation of his transgressions.

I believe a number of people, mods and otherwise, have already been strongly suggesting he tone down his fervour somewhat, privately and publicly. Hopefully the message sinks in.
Most would know he and I have had some serious differences in the past, and I'm probably the last person to go to bat for him, but overall [gritted teeth] he's contributed more than he's taken away from the forum. [/gritted teeth]

[RN7]

I've been off the board for a while and I've just read this. I've known Olefin on this board and other boards for a long time (15 years), in fact there are some members on this board I've known through the 2300AD groups as far back as the 1990's. On this board I've had a few heated debates with Olefin over the years, but he has never given me any reason to complain about his behaviour or have I ever felt that he should be banned for anything.

I've had heated discussions with Olefin, Legbreaker, Raellus and many others, but I have never felt that anyone should be banned. In fact there has only been one member who's behaviour I have ever complained to the moderators about and that wasn't Olefin. But I didn't want that guy banned for it, but he no longer contributes to this board so good luck to him whatever he is up too.

Olefin has contributed a lot of good work to this group, in fact he wrote a very good sourcebook. He has strong opinions and a good knowledge base, and its common knowledge that he doesn't take criticism too lightly. But bans and censorship is not a good thing with the fertile minds of the members of this board. There are no children on this board and where will the censorship end? Free discussion means free discussion end of!

If someone can't handle criticism or gets easily offended then really they shouldn't be getting into it with Olefin or others in the first place. There are many other threads to contribute to where the discussion is a lot more civilised, and a there is a huge resource base that any new member can look at to get themselves acquainted with T2K on the T2K Forum Thread Map thread.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by RN7

There are no children on this board and where will the censorship end? Free discussion means free discussion end of!

You are absolutely correct, RN7. Our forum's members are expected to behave like adults here. Petulance, ranting, and recalcitrance are childlike behaviors.

We don't censor ideas, but we do ask that members share their ideas within the parameters of our forum guidelines. In other words, it's less about what is said than how it is said.

We have forum guidelines for a reason- to make sure that discussion here is civil, constructive, legal, on topic, and apolitical. If members adhere to these guidelines, then the free exchange of ideas becomes the rule, not the exception. It is only when a member violates these guidelines, and ignores multiple moderator warnings, that a ban is even considered. This was the case with the member in question.

No one is saying that Olefin hasn't made valuable contributions to this community. But no one gets a free pass. The decision to ban Olefin was not taken lightly, or carried out in haste. He was given due process- after several days of deliberations, all three mods and the admin voted in favor of the ban. He is welcome to return to the forum when his ban expires; he need not fear a third ban if he abides by the forum guidelines.

There are plenty of discussion forums where people are free to insult one another, tear each others' work down, share files illegally, and spew political rhetoric at one another. This is not one of them. If someone finds this forum's guidelines for behavior too constrictive, members are free to go elsewhere.

-

[RN7]

As I stated I've been off the board for a while so I missed this.

I've been looking for comments made by Olefin and Spartan-117 and I can't find many so I can't comment on this. Have they been deleted?

I did see Olefin's comments in the 4th ed T2K thread. I have to say that I've seen worse on this board and he wasn't the only one who had an issue with the 4th ed. I haven't read up on the 4th ed yet so I have a neutral opinion of it at the moment.

One guy gets a 21 day ban and the other gets a two month ban. Why not give them equal treatment if you have to ban them.

I must look at the 4th ed to see what all the fuss is about. If I have any issues with it I'll be sure to let you know.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by RN7

I've been looking for comments made by Olefin and Spartan-117 and I can't find many so I can't comment on this. Have they been deleted?

No, they're still there. We're not in the business of censorship, if there's any way that it can be avoided.

Originally Posted by RN7

I did see Olefin's comments in the 4th ed T2K thread. I have to say that I've seen worse on this board and he wasn't the only one who had an issue with the 4th ed.

I have to respectfully disagree with your first statement. The only time I can recall seeing worse, it too led to a ban. As to your second statement, other members that were being critical of 4e were either doing so constructively and/or civilly (i.e. without name-calling or other pejoratives), OR they adjusted their approach to align with the forum guidelines when asked to do so by the mods.

Originally Posted by RN7

One guy gets a 21 day ban and the other gets a two month ban. Why not give them equal treatment if you have to ban them.

We deal with forum infractions on a case-by-case basis. The two cases that you mentioned were different. One-size-fits-all punishment is rarely justice. This is a sloppy analogy, but would a small-time graffiti vandal and a serial arsonist deserve the same punishment?

Originally Posted by RN7

I must look at the 4th ed to see what all the fuss is about. If I have any issues with it I'll be sure to let you know.

You are free to praise or criticize 4e as you see fit. In the case of the latter, all we ask is that you do so constructively and without insulting the creators.

-

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Raellus

No, they're still there. We're not in the business of censorship, if there's any way that it can be avoided. -

Well I can't see hardly any of Spartans-117 comments from where I am so I can't comment on that. I can see a lot of Olefin's comments. They are highly critical and some are over the top but he does have the right to be critical. I've criticised some of the old GDW sourcebooks in the past and nobody ever said anything about it.

Originally Posted by Raellus

I have to respectfully disagree with your first statement. The only time I can recall seeing worse, it too led to a ban. As to your second statement, other members that were being critical of 4e were either doing so constructively and/or civilly (i.e. without name-calling or other pejoratives), OR they adjusted their approach to align with the forum guidelines when asked to do so by the mods. -

Well if you want to spent the next year going through all the old post back to the beginning I'm sure you will find some gems.

Originally Posted by Raellus

We deal with forum infractions on a case-by-case basis. The two cases that you mentioned were different. One-size-fits-all punishment is rarely justice. This is a sloppy analogy, but would a small-time graffiti vandal and a serial arsonist deserve the same punishment? -

Comparing this with an actual crime where you could be sent to prison is not something I want to be really hearing Raellus.

Originally Posted by Raellus

You are free to praise or criticize 4e as you see fit. In the case of the latter, all we ask is that you do so constructively and without insulting the creators. -

Well thanks for your permission to discuss this I suppose. This board is becoming loads of fun now isn't it.

[Targan]

This conversation is coming very close to being entirely unhelpful. Opinions have been expressed, and that's fine. But when it crosses the line into the forum rules getting breached, this conversation ends and private warnings will be issued.

Step back and take a few deep breaths.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

As the person who started this thread in the first place, specifically to question the permanent bans as a potential punishment, I don't think there really is more to discuss.
I personally felt that the person being punished and the principle of the punishment needed to be re-examined and I believe that has been done to most people's satisfaction.
I don't believe there is a lot of value in continuing this discussion so my thoughts are that if this thread continues to cause drama, then the mods should lock it.
There have been divisive posts deleted in the past so if it is necessary to do so, I don't have any objection to this thread being deleted either.

[Hybris]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

As the person who started this thread in the first place, specifically to question the permanent bans as a potential punishment, I don't think there really is more to discuss.
I personally felt that the person being punished and the principle of the punishment needed to be re-examined and I believe that has been done to most people's satisfaction.
I don't believe there is a lot of value in continuing this discussion so my thoughts are that if this thread continues to cause drama, then the mods should lock it.
There have been divisive posts deleted in the past so if it is necessary to do so, I don't have any objection to this thread being deleted either.

i agree. I miss the days when I could go here for greet support and find the most amazing things to adapt or not adapt to my own universe. If this passionate criticism is the new norm and continues am afraid that it will take out the fun of coming to this page. But i guess a more recent concern is that new people that comes here will not se the amazing resource that this page has to offer. And to be honest, nether would I if hade not seen the value in the past 12 years.