Winter Cantonment Locations...

[Slappy]

Interesting thread here including a nice article by Legbreaker on the 2000 offensive.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=354

A couple of things lead me to the belief, quite possibly wrong, that the German III Corps spent the winter of 99-00 in northwest Poland.

One is the opening of the Kalisz campaign history in the 1.0 boxed set stating the 5th ID's jumping off point as Chojnice. Chojnice is about 200km east of the Oder and the German/Polish border. If the 5th had to make it's way that far through contested territory, I would have expected some word on it. My assumption was that this point was somewhere near the 5th's winter quarters or at least near to an area held by a NATO unit that could provide security such that the 5th was essentially road marching to that point.

Second is that the rest of III Corps (Germans, US 116 ACR, Canadian 4th Mech) is currently in the area around Kolobrzeg in all canon listings. There doesn't seem to be a lot of these units going much of anywhere during the 2000 offensive, despite the fact that they were III Corps units. There was also no significant Soviet counteroffensive that far north that I can find a mention of. My supposition is that they were a blocking force against the Soviet 8th Guards Army to the south east of Berlin. They largely stayed put when the offensive went to hell and so are largely where they started.

I would put the III Corps winter quarters generally in the area bounded by Szczecin, Pila, Chojwice and Lebork with Kolobrzeg as the Corps HQ.

[natehale1971]

Thank you guys for all the help you've given on this.. It's got me to respect just how much the DC working group has been doing!

[Slappy]

Data from the vehicle guides is pretty sketchy.

There is no data on the US units in late 99.

5th ID: No info between October 1997 and 2000.
8th ID: Withdrawn for refit after heavy casualties in 1997. Reentered the lines under XI Corps in Jan 1998 but no data on location until 2000 offensive.
2nd MAR: Reformed in Northern Germany in January 1998. No data until 2000.
116 ACR: Transferred to XI Corps in May 1999 but no location until participated in 2000 offensive.
50th AD: No information after October 1997.

NATO Guide has very slightly more.

Canadian 4th Mech Brigade: Nothing from 1998 to 2000, but currently in winter catonments in and around Karlino, Poland.
German 29th Panzer: In Czechoslovakia in 1998. Moved by road to Baltic coast (country unclear) in September 1999. Part of 2000 offensive. Must have wintered in coastal DDR or Poland.
6th Panzergrenadier: Withdrawn in late 1998 after taking losses near Stutgart. Nothing until 2000 and then only to say part of the 2000 offensive.
21st Panzergrenadier: Similar. Nothing from 1997 to 2000 offensive.

[Slappy]

Going Home does little to clear up the matter. If anything, it muddies the waters. Here is what it has to say about placements as of Autumn 2000:

German 3rd Army:
HQ: Wintering in Kiel
6th PGD: Wintering in Hamburg
21st PGD: Wintering in Bremen
29th PD: Wintering in Lubeck
Looks like the 3rd Army pulled back pretty far between August and November.

US XI Corps:
HQ: Wintering in Kolobrzeg, Poland w/ 50th AD. Intelligence handout dated September 2000 lists Pila, Poland as last known location.
50th AD: As above.
4th Can MB: Wintering in Karlino, Poland.
116th ACR: Wintering in Nowogorod, Poland (ex. for B troop in Dobrodzien, Poland per Black Madonna).
2 Mar Div: Wintering in Bialogard, Poland. Apparently the location was unknown in the US Guide, but they have reappeared.
5th ID: Scattered across Poland, Germany and Romania ?!?.
8th ID: Catonment in Riga. Isolated elements across the Baltic states to Finland ?!?

I haven't combed in detail, but a quick read of the town entries makes no mention of prior year winter quarters for any 3rd army units.

I think as far as winter quaters, the advice from Escape from Kalisz is as good as any: "Good luck, you're on your own".

[Legbreaker]

It is my understanding that very little large scale movement occured between approximately Christmas 1997 and the offensive of 2000. This can be explained by several important factors.

Firstly the extended period of sustained nuclear attacks by both sides virtually smashed any logisitical train the various armies had been relying on. Without fuel, they wouldn't be going anywhere, especially for the more mechanised western forces.

It would likely take some time for the realisation that the supply situation had dramatically and irreversably changed to sink in. It would take even longer for the units to adapt to the new situation and develop new systems, proceedures, and even technology (such as alcohol production and usage).

With the almost total destruction of prewar infrastructure, and the sudden pressing need for military units to be diverted to disaster relief and civil order missions, all the while trying to keep enough soldiers on the line to prevent successful enemy attack, there'd be very few people available to implement the necessary changes.

Once things settled down and there were less refugees to deal with (winter was harsh after all and summer wasn't much better with all the pandemics), focus could be shifted to the war effort once more. A reasonable estimate might be no less than 6 months from the last 1997 nuclear attacks to this stage.

And then there was another nuclear exchange, once more throwing the world into a panic....

So, it could be argued that recovery and adaption was unable to begin until spring of 1999. Throughout this year, only small scale raids took place, mainly one would think to secure vital resources in preparation for the following years offensives.

So, bearing in mind the upheaval after the nukes, and just how slow and torturous recovery might have been, it's quite conceivable units much bigger than a few hundred men, and certainly armoured units, remained in the same positions they'd been in at the beginning of 1998.


The positions shown in Going Home aren't particularly relevant to Christmas 1999 as by then reorganisation had been virtually completed. There'd also been a massive offensive and counteroffensive as well as the call for US troops to withdraw from Europe. Massive changes in unit dispositions would both be necessary, and for almost the first time in years, possible.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It is my understanding that very little large scale movement occured between approximately Christmas 1997 and the offensive of 2000. This can be explained by several important factors.

When did the big battles in Poland which were talked about in the Black Madonna module occur (the Battle of Czestochowa etc). I thought they were in 1998? In any case other than that I broadly agree with the last post.

[kato13]

Canon has a few offensives in 1998.

(quotes from V1 Referee's Manual)

1998
In late June, the Pact forces in southern Germany renewed their offensive in an attempt to seize the scattered surviving industrial sites in central Germany. Actually, the most intact parts of Germany were those areas in the south which had been under Warsaw Pact occupation, as neither side was willing to strike the area heavily. Galvanized into renewed action, NATO forces made a maximum effort to reform a coherent front, and the Pact offensive finally stalled along a line from Frankfurt to Fulda. In late August, NATO launched its own offensive from the area of Karl Marx Stadt, driving south to penetrate the Pact rear areas in Czechoslovakia. The thinly-spread Czech border guard units were quickly overwhelmed and Pact forces in central Germany began a precipitous withdrawal to Czechoslovakia, laying waste to southern Germany as they retreated.

1999 was pretty quiet.

1999
In Europe, the fronts were static for most of the year. Low troop densities meant that infiltration raids became the most common form of warfare. The "front" ceased to be a line and became a deep occupied zone, as troops settled into areas and began farming and small-scale manufacturing to meet their supply requirements. Local civilians were hired to farm and carry out many administrative functions in return for security from the
increasing numbers of marauders roaming the countryside.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Targan

When did the big battles in Poland which were talked about in the Black Madonna module occur (the Battle of Czestochowa etc). I thought they were in 1998? In any case other than that I broadly agree with the last post.

Battle of Czestochowa was May 24-June 7, 1997.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by kato13

Battle of Czestochowa was May 24-June 7, 1997.

Oops. The quality of the information in my posts on subjects like these takes a bit of a dive when I'm at work and I can't check my books before I start typing.