Winter Cantonment Locations...

[Legbreaker]

It is my understanding that very little large scale movement occured between approximately Christmas 1997 and the offensive of 2000. This can be explained by several important factors.

Firstly the extended period of sustained nuclear attacks by both sides virtually smashed any logisitical train the various armies had been relying on. Without fuel, they wouldn't be going anywhere, especially for the more mechanised western forces.

It would likely take some time for the realisation that the supply situation had dramatically and irreversably changed to sink in. It would take even longer for the units to adapt to the new situation and develop new systems, proceedures, and even technology (such as alcohol production and usage).

With the almost total destruction of prewar infrastructure, and the sudden pressing need for military units to be diverted to disaster relief and civil order missions, all the while trying to keep enough soldiers on the line to prevent successful enemy attack, there'd be very few people available to implement the necessary changes.

Once things settled down and there were less refugees to deal with (winter was harsh after all and summer wasn't much better with all the pandemics), focus could be shifted to the war effort once more. A reasonable estimate might be no less than 6 months from the last 1997 nuclear attacks to this stage.

And then there was another nuclear exchange, once more throwing the world into a panic....

So, it could be argued that recovery and adaption was unable to begin until spring of 1999. Throughout this year, only small scale raids took place, mainly one would think to secure vital resources in preparation for the following years offensives.

So, bearing in mind the upheaval after the nukes, and just how slow and torturous recovery might have been, it's quite conceivable units much bigger than a few hundred men, and certainly armoured units, remained in the same positions they'd been in at the beginning of 1998.


The positions shown in Going Home aren't particularly relevant to Christmas 1999 as by then reorganisation had been virtually completed. There'd also been a massive offensive and counteroffensive as well as the call for US troops to withdraw from Europe. Massive changes in unit dispositions would both be necessary, and for almost the first time in years, possible.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It is my understanding that very little large scale movement occured between approximately Christmas 1997 and the offensive of 2000. This can be explained by several important factors.

When did the big battles in Poland which were talked about in the Black Madonna module occur (the Battle of Czestochowa etc). I thought they were in 1998? In any case other than that I broadly agree with the last post.

[kato13]

Canon has a few offensives in 1998.

(quotes from V1 Referee's Manual)

1998
In late June, the Pact forces in southern Germany renewed their offensive in an attempt to seize the scattered surviving industrial sites in central Germany. Actually, the most intact parts of Germany were those areas in the south which had been under Warsaw Pact occupation, as neither side was willing to strike the area heavily. Galvanized into renewed action, NATO forces made a maximum effort to reform a coherent front, and the Pact offensive finally stalled along a line from Frankfurt to Fulda. In late August, NATO launched its own offensive from the area of Karl Marx Stadt, driving south to penetrate the Pact rear areas in Czechoslovakia. The thinly-spread Czech border guard units were quickly overwhelmed and Pact forces in central Germany began a precipitous withdrawal to Czechoslovakia, laying waste to southern Germany as they retreated.

1999 was pretty quiet.

1999
In Europe, the fronts were static for most of the year. Low troop densities meant that infiltration raids became the most common form of warfare. The "front" ceased to be a line and became a deep occupied zone, as troops settled into areas and began farming and small-scale manufacturing to meet their supply requirements. Local civilians were hired to farm and carry out many administrative functions in return for security from the
increasing numbers of marauders roaming the countryside.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Targan

When did the big battles in Poland which were talked about in the Black Madonna module occur (the Battle of Czestochowa etc). I thought they were in 1998? In any case other than that I broadly agree with the last post.

Battle of Czestochowa was May 24-June 7, 1997.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by kato13

Battle of Czestochowa was May 24-June 7, 1997.

Oops. The quality of the information in my posts on subjects like these takes a bit of a dive when I'm at work and I can't check my books before I start typing.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Targan

Oops. The quality of the information in my posts on subjects like these takes a bit of a dive when I'm at work and I can't check my books before I start typing.

Anything that initiates discussion is cool. Was fun reading "Black Madonna" again. Still has one of my favorites quotes

"However, all the valiant spirit in the world cannot make up for a lack of heavy artillery."

[Legbreaker]

That battle took place during the initial NATO drive eastward just before the nukes were first used.
It wasn't until a little later that the engineers placed the nuclear demolition charge flattening what little was left standing after the seige.

I'd forgotten about the Pact offensives of 1998. Makes a lot of sense though when you consider their offensive doctrine.
They would also probably be able to adapt a lot quicker than western armies with the sudden lack of fuel and general supply.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

That battle took place during the initial NATO drive eastward just before the nukes were first used.
It wasn't until a little later that the engineers placed the nuclear demolition charge flattening what little was left standing after the seige.

It said in the Black Madonna rumours list that several nuclear demolition charges had been set in Czestochowa but one failed to detonate. In my campaign that undetonated charge made its way into Major Filipowicz's hoard under the Jazna Gora and was eventually used by Major Po and his band of merry sociopaths to nuke WarPac Reserve Front HQ in Lublin in November of 2000.

[Legbreaker]

1998
In late June, the Pact forces in southern Germany renewed their offensive in an attempt to seize the scattered surviving industrial sites in central Germany. Actually, the most intact parts of Germany were those areas in the south which had been under Warsaw Pact occupation, as neither side was willing to strike the area heavily. Galvanized into renewed action, NATO forces made a maximum effort to reform a coherent front, and the Pact offensive finally stalled along a line from Frankfurt to Fulda. In late August, NATO launched its own offensive from the area of Karl Marx Stadt, driving south to penetrate the Pact rear areas in Czechoslovakia. The thinly-spread Czech border guard units were quickly overwhelmed and Pact forces in central Germany began a precipitous withdrawal to Czechoslovakia, laying waste to southern Germany as they retreated.

This would go a long way to eating up the last reserves of fuel and resources available to both sides and add to the reasons why 1999 was so quiet.
Compared to the previous year, the distances involved were negligable - in 1996-97 the war raged across almost all of Europe. In 1998, offensives stalled after moving just a stones throw or two... (in comparison).

[kato13]

Depending on when we see new stuff from the DC group, I might map out several canon paragraphs which describe unit movements (similar to the ones above). I plan to do something similar with the DC groups final data and it might be a useful test run. Of course the lack of complete data will make them pretty generic.

I'll look over the "Death of a Division" handout and see what I can do with that as it has really nice details.