LAV-75; Stingray; M8 AGS

[Dog 6]

Originally Posted by kato13

I've tried to do something similar a while back. Had military spending increase through 2000 at the same rate as the Reagan years. Delayed the war 5 years as well. Had trouble hitting the required personnel and some equipment bottlenecks, but I would be interested in seeing what you have.

ok I'll send it along. pm ok?

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

ok I'll send it along. pm ok?

Sure.

[Dog 6]

meh I'll just upload it here

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

meh I'll just upload it here

Interesting equipment mix. If I can dig up my prewar battalion breakdown representing a full 20 year Reagan build up I will post it as well.

[Raellus]

I'm no expert on heavy industrial and tech production but I think that modern tanks, jets, missiles, etc. will not roll off of production lines anywhere near as fast as the much more low-tech armaments did in WWII. The U.S. armaments industry never geared up to its maximum production capacity during either of the Iraq wars but I seem to recall hearing of a couple of instances where USN ships literally ran out of Tomahawk and had to wait week for the trickle of new production missiles to find their way in to the fleet.

That said, refurbishing existing systems, even mothballed ones, like the Sheridan, would be a faster way to get weapons to the battlefield that producing new, current-gen systems from scratch. So yeah, I can see the Sheridan coming back into service.

I like the LAV-75 precisely because it is based on a well established, pre-existing chasis. I don't know if M113s could be "cut-down" and converted (probably not), but the tools, facilities, and workers presumably still existed in '96 to reopen production. For a military starved for new/replacement tanks, it would be a godsend.

Anyone know what the max production rate for the Abrams was, at its peak? I'm sure a full-fledged wartime arms industry could do better, but not, methinks, by that much. The materials, hi-tech components, and highly trained production workers are just too hard to come by.

[Dog 6]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I'm no expert on heavy industrial and tech production but I think that modern tanks, jets, missiles, etc. will not roll off of production lines anywhere near as fast as the much more low-tech armaments did in WWII. The U.S. armaments industry never geared up to its maximum production capacity during either of the Iraq wars but I seem to recall hearing of a couple of instances where USN ships literally ran out of Tomahawk and had to wait week for the trickle of new production missiles to find their way in to the fleet.

That said, refurbishing existing systems, even mothballed ones, like the Sheridan, would be a faster way to get weapons to the battlefield that producing new, current-gen systems from scratch. So yeah, I can see the Sheridan coming back into service.

I like the LAV-75 precisely because it is based on a well established, pre-existing chasis. I don't know if M113s could be "cut-down" and converted (probably not), but the tools, facilities, and workers presumably still existed in '96 to reopen production. For a military starved for new/replacement tanks, it would be a godsend.

Anyone know what the max production rate for the Abrams was, at its peak? I'm sure a full-fledged wartime arms industry could do better, but not, methinks, by that much. The materials, hi-tech components, and highly trained production workers are just too hard to come by.

yes the production rate for the M-1s was 512 a year from one plant one shift.
in my games I have 5 plants ruining 3 shifts.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

yes the production rate for the M-1s was 512 a year from one plant one shift.
in my games I have 5 plants ruining 3 shifts.

Would you be willing to post a reference for this level of production? I've read that peace-time production was more like 30 tanks per month, or 360 per annum. I know it seems picky, but 150 Abrams is 150 Abrams.

Of course, once things kick off in the Far East, the factory probably will start running round-the-clock. Whether new plants open depends on a LOT of factors, most of which have to do with one's interpretation of the decisions by a relative handful of players whose attitudes could be all over the map. Are we going to sell as many M1s as we can manufacture to China? Are we going to sell any? Is China going to want any more M1s after the 1995 counteroffensive? (i.e., to what degree will they prioritize having very good and very expensive tanks over budgetary concerns and logistical issues?) How many M1s will China want? If China doesn't want new M1s, will the DoD place more orders anyway, since the tax revenues from China's massive arms orders will help pay for a US arms increase? If the DoD places more orders anyway, how many tanks does the DoD want over what timeframe? Do the Saudis and other M1 customers want more tanks? The speculative questions go on and on.

Webstral

[Dog 6]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Would you be willing to post a reference for this level of production? I've read that peace-time production was more like 30 tanks per month, or 360 per annum. I know it seems picky, but 150 Abrams is 150 Abrams.

Of course, once things kick off in the Far East, the factory probably will start running round-the-clock. Whether new plants open depends on a LOT of factors, most of which have to do with one's interpretation of the decisions by a relative handful of players whose attitudes could be all over the map. Are we going to sell as many M1s as we can manufacture to China? Are we going to sell any? Is China going to want any more M1s after the 1995 counteroffensive? (i.e., to what degree will they prioritize having very good and very expensive tanks over budgetary concerns and logistical issues?) How many M1s will China want? If China doesn't want new M1s, will the DoD place more orders anyway, since the tax revenues from China's massive arms orders will help pay for a US arms increase? If the DoD places more orders anyway, how many tanks does the DoD want over what timeframe? Do the Saudis and other M1 customers want more tanks? The speculative questions go on and on.

Webstral

the planed "Production run" was 12000 M-1s. we made it up to 8k or so.

it was "Jane's Defense Weekly" from the 1980's. i'll look around this weekend for it. also "Jane’s Armour & Artillery" in the late 80's had it.
also this: http://www.microarmormayhem.com/NATO...TTLE_mod_7.doc
look at "Appendix 3"

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Would you be willing to post a reference for this level of production? I've read that peace-time production was more like 30 tanks per month, or 360 per annum. I know it seems picky, but 150 Abrams is 150 Abrams.

1080 a year from both plants combined.

That and other weapons production rates are at
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/62xx/doc6...21b-Entire.pdf

The "maximum economic production rate" represents making full use of the production machinery. Higher rates are possible with an expansion of industrial plant. Whether that is possible in a T2k context is debatable - there are a host of issues with trying to start up new production capacity. There's a lot on this issue if you dig a little on google - when the US shut down new tank production in the 90s there was a lot of concern on what would be needed to reactivate a cold production line.

One of the bottlenecks (can't find the reference offhand) is that the DU armor production facility turned out no more than 25 sets of armor a month, so only 300 of the 1080 tanks produced per year have the HA armor set.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I'm no expert on heavy industrial and tech production but I think that modern tanks, jets, missiles, etc. will not roll off of production lines anywhere near as fast as the much more low-tech armaments did in WWII. The U.S. armaments industry never geared up to its maximum production capacity during either of the Iraq wars but I seem to recall hearing of a couple of instances where USN ships literally ran out of Tomahawk and had to wait week for the trickle of new production missiles to find their way in to the fleet.

There was that same problem in the Bonsia and Kosovo missions -- by the end of Kosovo, there were practically no ALCMs left in the US inventory, and they were converting a bunch of them by removing the nuclear warhead and replacing it with conventional explosives. The JDAM was new to the US at the time and almost all of them got used up.

Towards the end of Desert Storm, there were worries that if the conflict went on a couple of weeks longer, Coalition forces might run out of smart bombs altogether.

[pmulcahy11b]

Let me ask a question I've asked before, but we have some new members now: How long and how well could target drones like the QF-4 and other QF-series aircraft be refurbished into manned aircraft?

[Dog 6]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Let me ask a question I've asked before, but we have some new members now: How long and how well could target drones like the QF-4 and other QF-series aircraft be refurbished into manned aircraft?

as far as i know not long. a few days to a few weeks depending on the manpower put in to it.