Anti Tank Rifles

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

Everything you say about the circumstances of Beckwith's shooting is true but perhaps I haven't been clear enough. The thing about a round like the 12.7mm or .50 cal is that they are a long, AP bullet. They don't fragment when they hit a human body, they don't expand and they don't tumble. This means that whether they hit you at 20 feet or at a kilometre they are still going to punch right through you. My point is that if the round don't fragment, expand or tumble there is a finite amount of energy it can impart to a human body before it punches out the other side, and that energy transfer is roughly the same whether the round is at full velocity or not.

This is a different situation to that of a pistol or rifle round that fragments, expands or tumbles when it hits a meat target, as those sorts of rounds are much more efficient at dumping their energy into a target.

And we have yet another thing that RPG rules in general don't really simulate very well.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

And we have yet another thing that RPG rules in general don't really simulate very well.

Sadly true. I guess its a case of finding a rules set that does hmm? As I have done. What is the rules set I use again? I can't quite seem to remember...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

Sadly true. I guess its a case of finding a rules set that does hmm? As I have done. What is the rules set I use again? I can't quite seem to remember...

I'll have you burned at the stake for such blasphemy!

[Targan]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I'll have you burned at the stake for such blasphemy!

There's another thing that needs some work in the original T2K rules - burning.

[ChalkLine]

Originally Posted by Targan

There's another thing that needs some work in the original T2K rules - burning.

In T2K any sort of significant burn would probably lead to death through infection.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

In T2K any sort of significant burn would probably lead to death through infection.

There's another thing that needs some work in the original T2K rules - infection.

[Legbreaker]

The term "hydrostatic shock" springs to mind as being somewhat relevant....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The term "hydrostatic shock" springs to mind as being somewhat relevant....

Agreed and I did have hydrostatic shock in the back of my mind as I was writing my posts. I have a couple of points the first is a quote from the end of that Wikipedia article:

"Maximizing the ballistic pressure wave effects requires transferring maximum energy in a penetration distance that meets this requirement. In addition, bullets that fragment and meet minimum penetration requirements generate higher pressure waves than bullets which do not fragment."

Also, the fact that Beckwith suffered a single, narrow wound channel injury and was in a helicopter descending to drop off its passengers suggests to me that the round that hit him had retained a significant fraction of its initial velocity. What's the max effective range of a 12.7mm AA gun, 1.5km or so? The helo was probably at only a couple of hundred metres or less in altitude, and the round only had to go through a layer or two of thin aluminiun to hit Beckwith. It still had sufficient energy after leaving Beckwith's body to punch through the top of the helicopter and continue on its way. If it had been significantly slowed before it hit Beckwith it it would have been wobbling all over the place.

I'm not saying you guys are wrong by the way. I'm not an expert in this field. I'm just sharing my opinions based on the facts as I understand them.

[kcdusk]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

"hydrostatic shock" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

Whenever i hear this term, i think of the graphic of the bullet moving through the body in the movie "Three Kings".

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Some good points Targan. Perhaps because .50 BMG has such a thick jacket and doesn't deform actually improved his chances in a roundabout way, straight through with a nice clean hole at either side, less damage than if the round tumbled, a classic case of overpenetration

As for hydrostatic shock, it's such a murky concept I think it needs a whole lot more research done before I am totally convinced of either
1. it causes damage significant enough to cause death
2. it doesn't cause enough damage to warrant its inclusion as a factor in the stopping and/or killing power of a round.

Having started my training with the L1A1 and then later the F88 and having shot a few animals with .308 and .223, I'm leaning more towards big'n'slow will screw you up and fast'n'light will annoy you (there's a reason individual flechette rounds for rifles were discontinued). I think that hydrostatic shock while definately causing some wounding effect, tends to be overestimated in those effects

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The term "hydrostatic shock" springs to mind as being somewhat relevant....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

Unfortunately, hydrostatic shock is largely myth. Except for the brain (enclosed by a fairly inflexible skull) and perhaps the somewhat rigid liver, hydrostatic shock is not really an issue in gunshot wounds.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by copeab

Unfortunately, hydrostatic shock is largely myth. Except for the brain (enclosed by a fairly inflexible skull) and perhaps the somewhat rigid liver, hydrostatic shock is not really an issue in gunshot wounds.

That's another thing that needs some work in the T2K rules -- myths.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

That's another thing that needs some work in the T2K rules -- myths.

Actually that's something that the T2K rules DO deal with quite well - with the rumour tables in each module.

[jester]

Actualy the antitank rifle was used in Korea as well by the Chicoms as a long range sniper weapon.

I also remember reading about the soviet antitank rifles at Kursk. And some tanks would have several holes in their vehicles so stopping was not done.

On a T2K note,

I have just added an NPC who has a modified Soviet antitank rifle, just so he can have the benefit of a very heavy round to deal with vehicles and such at roadblocks, as well as taking pot shots at enemy forces who are in fortifications.

You must admit, sometimes a few well placed rounds of something heavy is what is called for, not a burst from a machinegun or a larger round or a rocket launcher. And since the round is found with Ivans heavy MGs it is fairly easy to get.

Modifications my NPC made was a modern bipod, a thick buttpad for the stock and a folding stock with built in shock absorber and of course a muzzlegreak and a few inches of the barrel has been cut off for portability.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by jester

Actualy the antitank rifle was used in Korea as well by the Chicoms as a long range sniper weapon.

I also remember reading about the soviet antitank rifles at Kursk. And some tanks would have several holes in their vehicles so stopping was not done.

A million years ago when I was ROTC, one of the little tidbits SGM Mills told us once was about a tactic the Mujaheddin used in Afghanistan against Soviet APCs and IFVs -- particularly the BTRs. They found they could actually stop them long enough for a good antiarmor shot by killing the driver. The driver-killers used old Mosin-Nagants to shoot the driver through the side or top of the vehicle's skin where the driver was. An RPG or sometimes an ATGM shot would quickly follow.

(SGM Mills had a lot of those little tidbits. Since his previous assignment before being an ROTC instructor was high up at 5th SF Group, he was still hooked into the "SF Network." I remember him distinctly to this day because I learned so much from him.)

[copeab]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

And we have yet another thing that RPG rules in general don't really simulate very well.

FWIW, in GURPS an AP round halves effective armor but then has it's damage divided by two against a living target.