Australia Twilight War & After...

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

That's basically why we are mostly called Indo-European. That's also how some of your ancestors, HQ, established kingdoms as far down as Sicily. Not to forget the Christian kingdom of Jerusalem.

On second thought, that is effectilvely a good idea. In my game, the most important threat to Australia is refugees coming by sea (from Japan, Korea and Taiwan). At last they finally get to be 5 millions but when they reach 3 million the Australian government doesn't welcome them anymore and orders the fleet to push them back. This results in massacres and bloody killings. It would be more than possible to have a military fleet with one of the last groups to try and force their landing.

Maybe something like that -yes- those countries ,especially Korea has the shipping and arms needed to pull off something like that ,even if it did go down as a terrible and bloody mess.

I dont mean a nefarious evil invasion plan - but maybe a desperate mass exodus of civillians,key personel and whatever military could be brought along as their homelands are nuclear cinders and cannibalism is the new national sport due to famine.

Mo- I do know about the states that some of our ancestors created that way . I would argue that history repeats itself .

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by headquarters

Mo- I do know about the states that some of our ancestors created that way . I would argue that history repeats itself .

I was sure you knew. That was some very impressive achievements nonetheless. The point behind it is that this rag tag fleet if it includes some fine military ships can also include inter-seas ferry and numerous junks. Such a fleet would progress (IMO) like the norsemen, stopping at various islands for trade, rest and raids. In fact, in my mind, it sounds as some sea marauders.

Could also be an interesting base for a campaign.

[ChalkLine]

Australia, frankly, is a dump. The Dutch sailed right around it long before Captain Cook turned up and the Dutch intelligently decided the whole place wasn't worth looking into. The only reason that the British liked the place was that because the USA had stopped taking their penal refuse they needed somewhere very, very far away to send them.

Really, we're more likely to invade Indonesia. If the weather gets much hotter due to global warming much of Australia will be utterly uninhabitable.

[jester]

The idea behind some of my post was other than a cool kick ass campaign. And not just the small scale actions with limited results they would accomplish, although a delay in production or shipping durring a critical phase could mean the difference between defeat and success to the nations troops in the field. I mean what happens when they do not get the fuel and supplies to continue their advance because a team of spetzis sunk a couplple of ships and closed a port bottling the supply ships up until the sunken wrecks could be removed?

Further, think of the fear and paranoia that would fill the population. Causing alot of distrust especialy of strangers.

Delays in passenger and employees due to new security protocols. The tying up of police forces. The curtailing of civil liberties, all of these adding to the stress to the population.

And the additional military forces in manpower and equipment to guard instalations and to hunt down the comandos thus robbing the commands at the front of men and material for defense at home.

I mean, water you say is an issue, so what happens if botulism is released into a water supply? I hear Ivan had a very nasty strain too. Or the teams set off some thermite bombs in those ready to burn tinder areas you mention? Add some of the above and you add more chaos and fear.

It is not so much the actual damage the small force does with a few kilos of explisives, it is the fear and panic and chaos that they create that is an even greater weapon.

An example, how effective was the Doolittle Raid on Japan? What effect did it have other than phsycological? The actual damage was very minor, but it did show the Japanese that they were not beyond the reach of an attack.

[RN7]

From logically trying to look at what a Soviet nuclear attack on Australia might look like, and what the Soviet command would be prepared to commit or spare from use elsewhere. From the location of Soviet missile silos it would seem that the SS-17, SS-19 and SS-18 (R-36MU) ICBM’s are largely arrayed against targets in North America and the Western Hemisphere. Therefore it is likely that the Soviets would use a combination of the SS-18 (R-36M2) and the SS-11 and mobile SS-25 missiles against Australian targets. From the Russian Far East the SS-11 & SS-25 with a range of at least 10,500km can hit any target in Australia north of the State of Victoria, while the SS-18 (R-36M2) with a single 20MT warhead can hit any location in Australia, including Tasmania. The SS-18 (R-36M2) is designed to obliterate major targets like large cities that are furthest away from the USSR, which happens to be all of Australia’s largest cities. However they are also unlikely to be targeting all that many against Australia as they are in a full scale war against the United States, NATO and China. Therefore to knock Australia out I would use no more than a half dozen SS-18s against Australia’s largest cities and perhaps another 7 SS-11 and SS-25s.


Primary Targets

SS-18
Adelaide, SA (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial Centre, Submarine Building, Military Vehicles, International Airport and Sea Port, Army Base)
Canberra, ACT (National Capital and International Air Port, NASA Deep Space Communications Station)
Geelong, VIC (Industrial Centre, Oil Refinery, Airport and Sea Port)
Melbourne, VIC (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial centre, Oil Refinery, Warship Building, Military Aircraft, International Air Port and Sea Port, Army and Airforce Base)
Sydney, NSW (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial Centre, Oil Refinery, Nuclear Reactor, International Air Port and Sea Port, Major Army Base, Garden Island Navy Base)
Woomera, SA (Air Force Air & Space Test Range)

SS-11 & SS-25
Brisbane, QLD (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial Centre, Oil Refinery, International Airport and Sea Port, Army Base)
Darwin, NT (Territorial Capital, International Airport and Sea Port, Army, Airforce and Navy Base, Radar Station, JORN Transponder)
Garden Island, WA (Major Navy Base)
Harold Holt Station (Joint Navy Communication Station)
Newcastle, NSW (Industrial Centre, Airport and Sea Port, Army Base)
Perth, WA (State Capital, and Major Population and Industrial Centre, Oil Refinery, Warship Building, International Airport, Army Base)
Pine Gap, NT (Joint Satellite Tracking Station)

To go the whole hog and wipe Australian civilisation out for the millennium I would also go for the following targets with a combination of SS-11, SS-25s and SLBMs from a boomer offshore.

Albury, NSW (Airport)
Alice Springs, NT (Airport, Radar Station)
Ajana, WA (JORN Radar Station)
Amberley, QLD (Major Airforce Base)
Avalon, VIC (Airport)
Barrow Island, WA (Oil and Natural Gas Field Support Facilities)
Benalla, VIC (Munitions Industry)
Bendigo, VIC (Military Vehicles, Military Uniforms)
Broome, WA (JORN Transponder)
Bullsbrook, WA (Airforce Base)
Cairns, QLD (Airport and Sea Port, Army and Navy Base)
Carnarvon, WA (JORN Radar Station)
Coffs Harbour, NSW (Airport)
Curtin, WA (Airforce Base, JORN Radar Station)
Dampier, WA (Sea Port, Army Base)
Derby, WA (Radar Station)
Devonport, TAS (Airport and Sea Port)
Edinburgh, SA (Airforce Base, JORN Radar Station)
East Sale, VIC (Airforce Base)
Elliot, NT (Radar Station)
Erina, NSW (Army Base)
Esperance, WA (Sea Port)
Exmouth, WA (Airforce Base, JORN Radar Station)
Fremantle, WA (Sea Port)
Geraldton, WA (Sea Port, Satellite Communication Monitoring Facility)
Gingin, WA (Airforce Base)
Gold Coast, QLD (Population Centre, International Airport)
Groote Eylandt, NT (JORN Radar Station)
Hamilton Island, QLD (Airport)
Hobart, TAS (State Capitol, International Airport and Sea Port, Army Base)
Jervis Bay, NSW (Navy Training Station)
Kalumburu, WA (JORN Transponder)
Kalkaringi, NT (JORN Radar Station)
Launceston, TAS (Airport, Army Base)
Laverton, WA (JORN Radar Station)
Lithgow, NSW (Small Arms and Ammunition)
Longreach, QLD (JORN Radar Station)
Lynd River, QLD (JORN Radar Station)
Mackay, QLD (Airport and Sea Port)
Moomba, SA (Natural Gas Pipeline Terminal and Processing Centre)
New Norcia Station, WA (European Space Agency Radio Antenna built in 2003)
Normanton, QLD (JORN Transponder)
Nowra, NSW (Navy Air Station)
Nhulunbuy, NT (JORN Transponder)
Oakey, QLD (Army Aviation Base)
Orange, NSW (Army Base)
Orchard Hill, NSW (Airforce Storage Facility)
Port Hedland, WA (Sea Port, JORN Radar Station)
Port Lincoln, SA (Sea Port)
Port Stanvac, SA (Oil Refinery and Sea Port)
Richmond, NSW (Major Airforce Base)
Rockhampton, QLD (Airport)
Scherger, QLD (Airforce Base, JORN Radar Station)
Shoal Bay, NT (Navy Intelligence Receiving Station)
Sunshine Coast, QLD (Population Centre, Airport)
Tamworth, NSW (Airport, Army Base)
Tindal, NT (Airforce Base)
Townsville, QLD (Airport and Sea Port, Major Army & Airforce Base)
Wagga Wagga, NSW (Airport, Airforce Base)
Williamstown, NSW (Major Airforce Base)
Woodside, SA (Army Base)
Wollongong, NSW (Industrial Centre and Sea Port)
Wyndham, WA (Radar Station)

[Targan]

I don't deny that that is a viable target list RN7 but just hitting the targets in the SS-18 and SS-11/SS-25 lists would wipe out probably 80% of Australia's population. After that you'd may as well recolonise Australia from Asia because Australia as a nation would cease to exist with no hope of recovery.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by RN7

From logically trying to look at what a Soviet nuclear attack on Australia might look like, and what the Soviet command would be prepared to commit or spare from use elsewhere...

A decent list, but one I feel could benefit from a local perspective.
Primary Targets

SS-18
Adelaide, SA (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial Centre, Submarine Building, Military Vehicles, International Airport and Sea Port, Army Base) - As far as I am aware, no subs have been built here for some time.

Canberra, ACT (National Capital and International Air Port, NASA Deep Space Communications Station) - The "international air port" is barely worthy of the name. It's not a lot more than a landing strip and a few supporting buildings. As for the politicians in Canberra, nuke away - it'd be no great loss!
I would miss that very cute woman I used to see there though.

Geelong, VIC (Industrial Centre, Oil Refinery, Airport and Sea Port)
Melbourne, VIC (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial centre, Oil Refinery, Warship Building, Military Aircraft, International Air Port and Sea Port, Army and Airforce Base) - Geelong and Melbourne could potentially be hit with one missile. Might take two warheads though to be sure. Warship (or any ship) building capacity is very limited (when compared to other locations). The various military bases are relatively small affairs and well dispursed.

Sydney, NSW (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial Centre, Oil Refinery, Nuclear Reactor, International Air Port and Sea Port, Major Army Base, Garden Island Navy Base) - I spent nearly ten years in Sydney. It would require multiple warheads to strike at all the listed targets. One may take out the majority of the port facilities, air port and garden island, but Holsworthy, Ingleburn, Richmond etc are quite a distance away (Richmond would require a nuke of it's own, but it's not much of a target.

Woomera, SA (Air Force Air & Space Test Range) - Don't know a lot about this one, but I believe there's not a lot there to nuke. I think it's more of an open space than actual facility.

SS-11 & SS-25
Newcastle, NSW (Industrial Centre, Airport and Sea Port, Army Base) - The Newcastle area would require several warheads at least to cover all probable targets, however some of those targets simply aren't worth the effort. Singleton for example is the Infantry Training Centre for the Australian Army, but consists of a small collection of buildings housing around a thousand people (at most) the majority of whom are usually out in the field at any given time. And those fields, well, they're BIG!

The remaining "target"s I don't really know enough about to comment on effectively. Some, like Darwin, I haven't laid eyes on in over twenty years, others such as Perth I've never been to.


As for the "total war" list...

Alice Springs, NT (Airport, Radar Station) - Is it really worth nuking an airstrip and radar dish?

Devonport, TAS (Airport and Sea Port) - probably two nukes required although neither needs to be very big. The port facility is incapable of major work being barely more than docks.

Launceston, TAS (Airport, Army Base) - two warheads required as there is at least 15 km between them. The two army bases are barely worthy of the name however, both are reserve units no larger than about an acre in size (0.4 hectares) with a standing staff counted on one hand. One is an infantry company, the other in the CBD is Artillery and support units (medical, supply, admin).

Orange, NSW (Army Base) - reserve unit only. No more than a handful of standing staff in BHQ plus thousands of sheep...

Richmond, NSW (Major Airforce Base) - Hmm, major.... If you consider C-130's and a hospital unit as a major combat asset...

Wagga Wagga, NSW (Airport, Airforce Base) - definately nukable since 1RTB is located at Kapooka, a short drive away. 1RTB is the recruit training centre for the entire army, everyone besides officers goes through there.
HOWEVER, it is only a training centre...

[RN7]

SS-18
Adelaide, SA (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial Centre, Submarine Building, Military Vehicles, International Airport and Sea Port, Army Base) - As far as I am aware, no subs have been built here for some time.

Well were do the Collins Class subs go to be serviced or repaired if HMAS Stirling at Garden Island WA cant do the job or is nuked then?

Canberra, ACT (National Capital and International Air Port, NASA Deep Space Communications Station) - The "international air port" is barely worthy of the name. It's not a lot more than a landing strip and a few supporting buildings. As for the politicians in Canberra, nuke away - it'd be no great loss! I would miss that very cute woman I used to see there though.

Still an airport that handles 2.8 million people a year and that has a 3,270M runway and secondary 1,679M runway would be of some use.

Geelong, VIC (Industrial Centre, Oil Refinery, Airport and Sea Port)
Melbourne, VIC (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial centre, Oil Refinery, Warship Building, Military Aircraft, International Air Port and Sea Port, Army and Airforce Base) - Geelong and Melbourne could potentially be hit with one missile. Might take two warheads though to be sure.

My thinking exactly

Warship (or any ship) building capacity is very limited (when compared to other locations). The various military bases are relatively small affairs and well dispursed.

I think any shipyard that can build and repair modern warships is worth targeting.

Sydney, NSW (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial Centre, Oil Refinery, Nuclear Reactor, International Air Port and Sea Port, Major Army Base, Garden Island Navy Base) - I spent nearly ten years in Sydney. It would require multiple warheads to strike at all the listed targets. One may take out the majority of the port facilities, air port and garden island, but Holsworthy, Ingleburn, Richmond etc are quite a distance away (Richmond would require a nuke of it's own, but it's not much of a target.

A 20MT warhead might do the job, but I still would be open to a second missile strike on Australia's largest city. I think RAAF Richmond is home to much of Australia's military airlift resources, although its unlikely that all would be based there.

Woomera, SA (Air Force Air & Space Test Range) - Don't know a lot about this one, but I believe there's not a lot there to nuke. I think it's more of an open space than actual facility.

Woomera Test Range is the largest defence systems test and evaluation range in the western world and to be honest I'm not sure what there either as its sort of an Australian White Sands, so I believe a 20MT warhead would be needed to at least disable operations from it.

Newcastle, NSW (Industrial Centre, Airport and Sea Port, Army Base) - The Newcastle area would require several warheads at least to cover all probable targets, however some of those targets simply aren't worth the effort. Singleton for example is the Infantry Training Centre for the Australian Army, but consists of a small collection of buildings housing around a thousand people (at most) the majority of whom are usually out in the field at any given time. And those fields, well, they're BIG!

A MIRV strike then perphaps?

Alice Springs, NT (Airport, Radar Station) - Is it really worth nuking an airstrip and radar dish?

No its just a potential target.

Devonport, TAS (Airport and Sea Port) - probably two nukes required although neither needs to be very big. The port facility is incapable of major work being barely more than docks.

Launceston, TAS (Airport, Army Base) - two warheads required as there is at least 15 km between them. The two army bases are barely worthy of the name however, both are reserve units no larger than about an acre in size (0.4 hectares) with a standing staff counted on one hand. One is an infantry company, the other in the CBD is Artillery and support units (medical, supply, admin).

I wouldnt bother with Tasmania myself, as its of no strategic value.

Orange, NSW (Army Base) - reserve unit only. No more than a handful of standing staff in BHQ plus thousands of sheep...

Again just a potential target.

Richmond, NSW (Major Airforce Base) - Hmm, major.... If you consider C-130's and a hospital unit as a major combat asset...

Not all military resources are frontline combat ones.

Wagga Wagga, NSW (Airport, Airforce Base) - definately nukable since 1RTB is located at Kapooka, a short drive away. 1RTB is the recruit training centre for the entire army, everyone besides officers goes through there. HOWEVER, it is only a training centre...

Worth a nuke then?

[RN7]

It always good to get a local prospective on things. Would be great if we could do some target lists for other countries and get some local knowledge as well from people who live there.

Newcastle, Woolongong and especially Sydney would need multiple warheads to take out completely. Unlike cities in the northern hemisphere (especially Europe), Australian cites are spread over a very wide area. Sydney, with only approximately 4 million people (a little under a 1/5th of the total Australian population) takes about an hour to drive across even taking the motorways and cruising at around 110 kph. Richmond is approximately 50km from Garden Island/CBD, Orchard hills is 20km from Richmond, Holsworthy 45km from Richmond and Holsworthy to the CBD/Garden Island area is about 30km.
It is my estimate that you'd need at least five warheads to significantly damage just those targets mentioned.

I live in Dublin, Ireland which is a relatively small city compared to some of the bigger cities and conurbations in Britain and Europe, yet it would take nearly an hour to drive from the northern end to the southern end of it at a steady speed as the suburbs are huge, and the Dublin area has now spread well beyond Co. Dublin and out into four other counties.

[RN7]

Well this getting beyond the Australia discussion Mohender.

Here you are forgetting about boomers and aircrafts. Then, in the game (always v2.2) the four Russian SS-18 bases were targeted and destroyed and there is no point to do that if the missiles are already launched (especially as no one hits any target anywere). That alone would explain why US wasn't hit by SS-18.

I doubt bombers would used in a first strike by either America or Russia, particularly against each other. Although boomers may be used in conjunction with land based ICBMs.

Two things make me think that most of this comes from insufficient knowledge from the original T2K team (they didn't have internet and many informations were unavailable). Out of the 7 other bases destroyed in USSR, 3 are SS-26 (actual Iskander) and 1 is SS-27 (commissioned only after 1998). There is also no reason for them to have forgotten the 2 bases in Kazakhstan and especially/only these ones.

Probably right here.

So to answer your question:
- All ICBM bases are not listed as destroyed but if two SS-18 bases remain why not use any of them (104) against US/Canada and their highly strategic targets?

They may use some, but there are other targets (Australia) that need to be hit as well.

- To retaliate the soviets still have boomers and aircrafts+mobile ICBM fire units (about 300 SS-25).

I think they would be largely used against American and NATO targets closer to the USSR.

- If the soviets starts, it is possible that they don't send SS-18 in the first place. However, I would agree that it is highly unlikely. On the other hand, again, why leaving about 80 SS-18 in their Silos while they are the best suited weapons to take out NORAD, the US ICBM bases and even Washington DC?

Well they dont really need to use the SS-18 (R-36M2) to hit the US as other ICBM's have the range, but to cause the most damage they would be well suited.

In addition, according to the game text (again v2.2), both sides refrain from targetting the other side's ICBM land base for quite some times. At last, they do: All 4 US bases are taken out (Forks, Malmstrom, Minot & Warren +Vandenberg) and almost all Soviets bases in Russia with the base in others republics not accounted for (most likely forgotten). Then, they are two possibilities: All missiles are destroyed before being launched or they are launched before the bases are destroyed and, then, SS-18 should be accounted for all over (there are none/according to your own account most Satan were equipped with 20Mt warheads, they would have been used). I grant you that the Mt listed are highly questionable and can be open to debate (but that will become endless)

I don't think we will ever know will we.

For my parts (I mean in my game), I use several SS-18 but only on highly strategic targets. They are not used extensively because the first strike is successful in decapitating the US ICBM force. Then, in turn, the Soviets' ICBM force (silo only) is decapitated by strikes from SLBM.

If the Soviets launched a first strike on the US I think its highly probable that most if not all of the US silo based ICBMs would be launched before they were destroyed by the incoming Soviet missiles.