Weapons Timelines for the Twilight War

[Targan]

There is scope for nearly infinite variety of opinion on this topic but realistically can be broken down into two main ways of looking at the issue:
1: Entirely factual, where you simply find the real life information on when a given weapon system was fielded and apply that to the T2K timeline or
2: Assume that the differences between the IRL and T2K timelines resulted in various weapon systems being developed and/or fielded earlier, later or not at all compared to RL.

In nearly all cases IMTW I take the latter view, and more specifically that because the Cold War never really ended in the T2K timeline the development and fielding of many weapon systems was accelerated. I think an acceleration of three to five years is not unreasonable in most cases but there are many exceptions. For instance, the development of some weapon systems may have been directly or indirectly influenced by advances in materials technology and those advances may not have been influenced by whether or not the Cold War continued (such as some developments made in the civilian sector that were not initially military in nature). The time scale for the application of such developments in the area of weapons tech would therefore be similar in both the RL and T2K timelines (although the fielding of the resulting weapons systems could be accelerated or decelerated in T2K once they had been developed).

The above probably isn't very easy to read but I think you all will get an idea of what I'm trying to say.

Relating this to Raellus' opening post with the UK as an example I think that the L85, L85A1/SA80, SLR, and Armalite AR-18 could all be used by British forces during the Twilight War, but the L85A1 might have been seen in only limited numbers because if you apply my suggestion of an acceleration of three to five years to Raellus' statement that "the improved L85A1 version only entered widespread service right around 2000", it would only have entered widespread service in the T2K timeline somewhere between 1995 and 1997.

[Raellus]

Good analysis, Targan.

I tend to combine the two viewpoints, using RL as a frame of reference but assuming significant changes due to the historical divergence necessitated by the Twilight timeline.

To bolster your point, Targan, the accepted explanation for W. Germany's cancellation of the adoption of the G11 was the financial strain brought about by reunification, E. Germany largely being economic dead weight. However, since reunification didn't occur until '96 in the v1.0 Twilight 2000 timeline, West Germany would have had around 5 years or so to manufacture G11s before the complications of reunification by force.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I think the accepted reason for the non-adoption of the G11 was not that it was economic dead weight but that the West German security situation no longer required the weapon (i.e. the end of the Cold War meant that replacing the G3 didn't warrant as high a priority) and the money would/could then be used to help finance the unification of the two Germanys.

Given that the G11 was accepted as the next infantry rifle for West German forces, it is highly likely that the G36 was never even considered for study let alone developed. Everything would have been focused on production of the G11 for frontline troops and the G41 for support/rear-area troops. In those circumstances the G36 is unlikely to even exist in any of the T2k timelines.

Another possible contender in the Soviet Army would be the AEK-971 rifle, another contender for the AK-74 replacement http://world.guns.ru/assault/as34-e.htm

Other Soviet weapons you'd could possible find are
ASM-DT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASM-DT_..._Assault_Rifle
AS 'Val' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS_Val
SR-3 'Vikhr' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR-3_Vikhr
9A-91 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9A-91
VSK-94 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSK-94

And some other possibilities, this time from Sweden
FM 1957 and
GRAM 63
both can be seen here http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/ak/ak4_5/ak5_history.htm
and from the USA
TRW Low Maintenance Rifle http://world.guns.ru/assault/as78-e.htm

[Legbreaker]

I tend to agree with almost all the comments above, but the G-11 is definately one of those "what if" items.
In a 1.0 timeline, it's almost certain to have seen widespread issue and the G36, etc is likely to not have made it past prototyping.
2.0/2.2 on the other hand is going to be nearly the opposite - a hundred or so G-11s produced for testing and probably only in the hands of SF types, while the G36 was pumped out by the thousand due to it's more contemporary and "socially acceptable" mechanism and chambering.

An advance of three to five years seems a little excessive though. I'd be inclined to say more like one to three (at most) as it takes time for economies to switch over to wartime production and R&D, and then in 1997 we have what is effectively a brick wall for development.

To my mind, whatever technology exists around September to Novemeber 1997, is all there is. From there it's virtually all downhill.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I tend to think that 3 to 5 years is a conservative figure for advancing the research, typically the only things that would retard the R&D would be lack of finances and/or lack of national desire.
To illustrate my meaning, I watched a science show some years ago and they were discussing cybernetic implants for eyes that would allow partially blind people to see better and even allow those who were blind to gain some sight. The chief researcher said that under current conditions it would take about 10-15 years to reach that goal but with more funding it could be as little as half that time.

If the leadership of a country wants something badly enough, they'll make the funding available and again the G11 is a good example of that. Originally developed if I remember right, as a contender for the West German version of the 'Salvo' Project that the USA was conducting, the tech of the G11 soon surpassed the then current firearms technology and it's still considered advanced compared to today. The West German government pumped a lot of money into it and Heckler & Koch put some of their own money into the project from what I understand of it.

Personally I can't see the G36 being developed even in the 2.2 timeline because, in the real world, its precursor rifle began development in the early 1990s with the G36 available for service in 1997 whereas in the Twilight 2.2 world, in 1993 there is warfare in the Soviet republics and by 1994 Europe is showing increasing signs of instability. It's at this point that Germany begins building up it's forces and by 1995, to quote the 2.2 book, page 9 ...Germany declares its agreement on size and location of armed forces 'obsolete in relation to the current European situation." They are gearing up for a war that they enter in 1996.

Under those circumstances I could see Germany increasing the production of G41 rifles and/or the less expensive HK33 rifle (and it's HK53 carbine, HK13 & HK23 LMG variants) as well as perhaps issuing the East German AK variants.
But I can't imagine they would start up the research and development of a completely new weapon given that they are in the process of building up for a regional conflict. They couldn't possibly hope to supply enough of them to their forces even if they did get it to the production stage. I don't disagree that there would be relatively small numbers of the G11 available but I really can't see the G36 being produced at all.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

The chief researcher said that under current conditions it would take about 10-15 years to reach that goal but with more funding it could be as little as half that time.

Heh. Of course he'd say that.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Heh. Of course he'd say that.

Well how else could he pay for his new Porsche and the golf club membership?

P.S. Meant to add the following, Raellus, I chose those links mostly for the Soviet weapons because some of them had the in service dates listed but for a fuller write-up and more pictures the site I got the TRW rifle from is far better http://world.guns.ru/main-e.htm