Weapons Timelines for the Twilight War

[StainlessSteelCynic]

A few ideas here.
1. The IRA had stockpiles of weapons largely obtained from Communist and US sources (AKs, AMD rifles, RPG-7s, M60s, M1 carbines) and they most certainly did have AR-18 in rifle and carbine form. I believe the British troops in Northern Ireland referred to it as the Widow Maker. The police in Northern Ireland had Mini-14 rifles and also I think M1 carbines. Weapons captured or bought from the Irish para-militaries could provide all sorts of exotic weapons (compared to the normal UK gear).
Also, the Irish Army changed from the L1A1 to the AUG in 1988 I think, so that too could be available for UK campaigns.

2. Heckler & Koch were bought out by Royal Ordnance in 1991 so while the AR-18 may not be available for manufacture, perhaps the HK33 was. It was certainly used by various police agencies in the UK.

3. Most nations keep some sort of war-store typically of equipment that has passed from service when newer versions have been introduced. It is highly likely that that many L1A1 rifles and L4 Bren Guns were placed into the war-stores so they would be available for emergency expansion of the military if necessary.
They may even have kept SMLE rifles, Sten Guns and Vickers Guns because some nations keep hold of these stores for several decades - look at Yugoslavia, they still had large numbers of M10 tank destroyers and T-34 tanks into the 1980s-1990s when the civil war broke out.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

3. Most nations keep some sort of war-store typically of equipment that has passed from service when newer versions have been introduced. It is highly likely that that many L1A1 rifles and L4 Bren Guns were placed into the war-stores so they would be available for emergency expansion of the military if necessary.

Example: The large numbers of M-14s and M-21s that the US has pulled out of storage for use in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Example: The large numbers of M-14s and M-21s that the US has pulled out of storage for use in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I would be surprised indeed ifthey didnt have stockpiles of everything from Korea and up until today .SMLE,Sten;Bren ( which the TA used until not that long ago ),SLRs,AR-18s .Any govt with respect fo rit self keeps a stockpile .One involved in as many places as the British..probably keeps a stockpile for Bloc and one for Nato scenarios .You never know when supply dries up and those pesky third world dictators that keep oil flowing freely need a refill somewhere.

Just 10 years ago I bought a Kar98 Mauserfrom OUR TA armouries in a big clearance they did .I recall they had something like 60 000 of these still ,from the 250 000 taken from the Germans when they were sent home in 45, rechambered for 30-06 and used until we got the Garands.

I am hoping for the Garand clearance to happen

I saw a documentary on British arms dealers once ,where 2 city type pin stripe guys were fa-fa ing about their experiences -one was retiring from a long life in the biz -the other up and coming .Together they inspected a load of Turkish Mausers ( or were they German on Turkish contract ) 12 000 pieces iirc , all in a customs clearing house or some such -in a major UK port . Maybe it was London .


Britain is no # 3 arms dealer in the world I have been told.I suppose that should lead to the conclusion that there are stockpiles .

Also - consider the amount of firearms constantly being shipped .What would be in any given major port at any given time irl ? A few containers of armaments here and there for sure-also in a major shipping country like Britain .

Given the underlying mercenary bone in the Scandinavian - how many strapping British lasses would you say a trawler load of northern flank battlefield pick up AKs,RPGs,PKs,frags and ammo would be worth ?

Not as the same number as if it ws the other way around -but still

Throw in a couple of the Monty Python cast to keep us smiling through the dark winters with no telly ,and you should be able to get your self a few 23 mm AA guns too.

But I find part of the allure of a UK campaign the LACK of arms ,and the impro needed.Melee weapons,museum pieces,civillian guns .Lends a few got suspense points to a campaign . Bursting away the problem isnt enough in a way .

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I am hoping for the Garand clearance to happen.

Here I want a L1A1 SLR. Might have been a possibility too until about a decade ago when the governement banned any civilian weapon that was semi or fully auto, had a mag greater than 5 rounds and could actually do more than scare a rat....

I suppose I'll have to settle for the two rebuilt SMLE's with match grade barrels and top notch (for the 1950's and 60's) optics I've just inherited from my grandfather (Kings marksman with regular 1000 yard possibles in his day).

[pmulcahy11b]

You can over-generalize and say that the G-11s ammunition is solid smokeless powder -- but that's REALLY over-simplifying it. The G-11s ammunition uses a special blend of a new mix of propellant and cellulose, along with other binders and wrapped in a combustible layer of a plastic-like material (but actually a polymer). The block of propellant is also specially-shaped, to precise proportions. It's issued as a complete magazine, which is also kept in shrink-wrap until issued to the soldier. (G-11 ammunition wasn't designed for loading into magazines by hand -- HK feels the ammunition blocks will probably be damaged by an attempt to hand-load the magazine, and even very small damage will throw off the trajectory or stability of the round -- larger damage will probably jam the G-11.) The bottom of the block of propellant has a special-composition primer in a cup that is also combustible. Somehow, I can't buy it being made properly again until maybe 15-25 years after the Twilight War.

[Raellus]

Great info, Paul. Thanks.

With this in mind, I would imagine most German troops c. 2000 would be armed with 7.62mm G3s, 5.56mm G41s or G33s, or 7.62mm S AKMs.

[Raellus]

I recently picked up a copy of The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Guns (Fowler, North, Stronge, & Sweeney) from the bargain bin @ my local Barnes & Noble.

The entry for the H&K G41 states that it was to be manufactured as a weapon for reservists while the G11 was produced simultaneously for the regular Bundeswehr. The end of the Cold War put an end to both weapons and eventually led to the later adoption of the G36. So, I reckon that in the Twilight timeline that the G41 would be fairly common, alongside the venerable G3 and former DDR AKs, in the German armed forces of 2000.

Also, the entry for the L85A1 savages the weapon. Apparently, nearly the entire production run was recalled and handed over to H&K for refurbishment. The end result (L85A2) was, by many accounts, still a disappointment, extremely unpopular with most of the British troops in the field in Afghanistan. I really wonder how this weapon would have been handled if the Cold War had continued. Based on this (and other similar reports), I'd like to think that the British military would have pursued alternatives, like bringing back the SLR and/or manufacturing the AR-18 to supplement/replace the L85A1/2.

I also learned from this volume that Bulgaria and Romania (as well as Poland, which I already knew about) produced AK-74 clones in 5.45mm. I had always assumed that the Warsaw Pact nations would have done so but had never seen specific, documented references to this happening. This seems to indicate that AKM variants would be slightly less common among front line and tier one WP reservists than I'd first thought.

[pmulcahy11b]

I would add that I don't think in any timeline -- T2K v1, V2, v2.2, 2013, or Merc 2000 -- would the G-11 have ever made it into production. Even now, it's essentially "too innovative;" it would require supply people to stock exotic ammo and weird parts, require a lot of new training regimens (both for the regular troops and those like drill sergeants that have to train the masses), and upset the supply systems of most Western and Westernized countries in the world, which currently revolve around tens of millions of rounds of 5.56mm NATO and 7.62mm NATO ammunition and the weapons that fire it. Economically, pretty much any country is going to look at the G-11 and say, "It's a great rifle, it may be the wave of the future, but we can't afford for the foreseeable future."

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Also, the entry for the L85A1 savages the weapon. Apparently, nearly the entire production run was recalled and handed over to H&K for refurbishment. The end result (L85A2) was, by many accounts, still a disappointment, extremely unpopular with most of the British troops in the field in Afghanistan. I really wonder how this weapon would have been handled if the Cold War had continued. Based on this (and other similar reports), I'd like to think that the British military would have pursued alternatives, like bringing back the SLR and/or manufacturing the AR-18 to supplement/replace the L85A1/2.

I often think that the British should have told the US to shove it after World War 2 and went their own way with the EM-2. The Belgians and the Spanish both were willing to chamber weapons for the .280 round (one of the first FAL prototypes was chambered for the .280 round, as was one of the first CETME prototypes); only US political bullying stopped the .280 round from gaining more widespread acceptance. Our loss, IMHO.

[dude_uk]

Given the circumstances in Westral's 'Storm in Germany', I think that it would be deemed more prudent for the UK to manufacture an already proven design, giving more commonality within NATO, than producing something untried during the increased East-West tension after the Danilov led coup.

If you include the Gulf war as timeline, The Challenger1 is given a battle proof run and is proven to work. The amount of kills it gets and its proven reliability in the field make up for it shortcomings at CAT 87. No doubt a Challenger 2 equipped team would be fielded for the next CAT before WW3 breaks out and The British army would be playing to win...

Your are looking at around 372 Challenger 1's and 386 Challenger 2 by 1996, Just enough to equip BOAR entirely. With about 850 chieftains in reserve.

This is all speculation however, how fast production of challenger 1 or 2 in a continuing and somewhat more strained cold war is anyone's guess.

The SA80 is however another matter, the Gulf war is the catalyst for its undoing with its problems laid bare before the world. Wikipedia states that a upgrade program is conducted in '91. Whether this converts it to an A2 of sorts standard, or is simply another temp solution can be entirely up to you.

[rnitze]

V1 world, OK G-11 might have been being started being fielded, and G36 never invented. But with G3, G41 (HK33) HK53, MP5 and 7,62mm HK 11 / HK 21 and 5,56mm HK 13 / HK 23 machine guns are way more than enough for an army at war... I say G11 scrapped fast ---plenty of other things to assemble. I just wanna know if Italians ever take H&K home base at Oberndorf am Neckar....

[Raellus]

So, a lot of discussion here has focused on the G3 v. G11 v. G41 v. G36 v. MPiK-74 for the reunified German Army in the v1.0 timeline. Well, apparently there's another competitor, one that I'd never heard of before. I ran across an article on the HK32 in Recoil magazine today. It appears that the West German gov't. was interested in producing a rifle that could be fed 7.62x39mm ammunition from standard Kalashnikov magazines. According to the article, the reasoning behind this was the potential for sudden reunification with the DDR, coupled with NATO ammunition shortages. This scenario sounds uncannily similar to the T2K v1.0 premise!

http://www.recoilweb.com/recoil-issue-25-94571.html

There's an image of a modern version of the HK32 center right on the magazine cover liked to above. There's not much, online, about the HK32, but apparently a few got past the prototype stage and ended up in, of all places, Mexico.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...cal-hk32-seen-

http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?optio...86:hk32-series

So, I wouldn't be surprised that, in the run-up to the v1.0 reunification, the W. German government ordered substantial numbers of the HK32 to equip former E. German units once they were absorbed into the Bundeswehr. Perhaps, instead of the more complex, more expensive G11, production was split between HK33s or 41s for W. German units and the HG32 for E. German units. That way, both segments of the newly reunified German army would be equipped with very similar weapons that could draw on existing stockpiles of ammunition.

I haven't had much time to mull this over, but I'm really liking this idea.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Here I want a L1A1 SLR.

Me too. That would make my year.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I suppose I'll have to settle for the two rebuilt SMLE's with match grade barrels and top notch (for the 1950's and 60's) optics I've just inherited from my grandfather (Kings marksman with regular 1000 yard possibles in his day).

Very cool. Respect to your grandfather.

[Legbreaker]

Not bad for an Air Force mechanical engineer during the war.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Not bad for an Air Force mechanical engineer during the war.

Those sound like sweet rifles.

I have sniffed at the .308 Einfields that Marstar are selling -but money is holding me back..

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Not bad for an Air Force mechanical engineer during the war.

Hey, Kalashnikov was a tanker sergeant -- DATs don't even know one end of a rifle from the other!

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by headquarters

Given the underlying mercenary bone in the Scandinavian - how many strapping British lasses would you say a trawler load of northern flank battlefield pick up AKs,RPGs,PKs,frags and ammo would be worth ?

Not as the same number as if it ws the other way around -but still

Throw in a couple of the Monty Python cast to keep us smiling through the dark winters with no telly ,and you should be able to get your self a few 23 mm AA guns too.

But I find part of the allure of a UK campaign the LACK of arms ,and the impro needed.Melee weapons,museum pieces,civillian guns .Lends a few got suspense points to a campaign . Bursting away the problem isnt enough in a way .

I agree that the lack of weapons can in itself be entertaining, especially when dealing with small groups of marauders in the areas that have descended into anarchy, where improvised weapons are going to the norm. The other thing I would say there is how much of a force multiplier even one or two weapons can be; a couple of brigands armed with Sterlings or SLR's could easily set themselves up as absolute rulers of a community who only have melee weapons.

Where I tend to have to think more out of the box is when it comes to arming large numbers of people (i.e. into the thousands) such as the Duke of Cornwall's forces, the independent Scottish and Welsh armies, etc, which is where the Government stockpile, freight container full of SLR's etc comes in handy. I ended up equipping most of the Bragad Chan Cymru (Army of Wales) with a mix of civilian weapons and military weapons taken from the Infantry Battle School at Brecon.

In a rough draft I wrote for the Scots I orginally had them armed and equipped by the French (down to French Army uniforms and Famas rifles). Would be interested on everyone's thoughts on this; on reflection I pretty much reckoned the French might not want to be seen to interfere in UK domestic affairs quite so overtly, so chose to downplay the French involvement in Scotland, making it more subtle and covert and reducing the number of French soldiers in Scotland from several hundred to several dozen. (This means that instead of getting brand new Famas rifles, the Scottish Army only get a few hundred Belgian manufactured FN FAL's which the Franco Belgian Union can deny all knowledge of).

I've never really considered large numbers of terrorist weapons making their way to the mainland - I always figured that the majority of those weapons would stay in Ireland, although there's no reason why the Irish couldn't do the same as the Scandinavians and trade weapons for various commodities...interesting...hadn't thought about that before...I really need to sit down and have a serious look at Ireland at some point in time...

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

...Where I tend to have to think more out of the box is when it comes to arming large numbers of people (i.e. into the thousands) such as the Duke of Cornwall's forces, the independent Scottish and Welsh armies, etc...

...on reflection I pretty much reckoned the French might not want to be seen to interfere in UK domestic affairs quite so overtly, so chose to downplay the French involvement in Scotland... (This means that instead of getting brand new Famas rifles, the Scottish Army only get a few hundred Belgian manufactured FN FAL's which the Franco Belgian Union can deny all knowledge of).

Don't forget that the French probably have truckloads of weapons collected from refugees (military and civilian) trying to cross the border into France. It would include all manner of civilian hunting and sporting firearms and any military firearms they don't want to keep. They'd also have lots of older French weapons in their own war-stores that they might be prepared to offload (e.g. MAT49 SMG, MAS 36 rifle, FM24/29 LMG) and possibly even WW2 weapons that they were using/storing up to the 1950s (like Thompson SMGs, Kar98 rifles, M1 Carbines, MP40 SMGs, Bren Guns, BARs and so on)

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Don't forget that the French probably have truckloads of weapons collected from refugees (military and civilian) trying to cross the border into France. It would include all manner of civilian hunting and sporting firearms and any military firearms they don't want to keep. They'd also have lots of older French weapons in their own war-stores that they might be prepared to offload (e.g. MAT49 SMG, MAS 36 rifle, FM24/29 LMG) and possibly even WW2 weapons that they were using/storing up to the 1950s (like Thompson SMGs, Kar98 rifles, M1 Carbines, MP40 SMGs, Bren Guns, BARs and so on)

Very true. I think the downside to supplying ex French Army gear is that like the Famas rifles they'd be fairly easy to trace back to source and lead to an increase in tensions between HMG and the French. I've always assumed that the French have a stock of German and Dutch Army weapons and equipment that they captured during the occupation of the Rhineland and the Netherlands. If they supplied the Scots with Uzis, G3's etc HMG might have a fairly good idea where they've come from but proving it would be another matter.

Another area I've considered is that the French presence in Quebec means that all sorts of things (including weapons) could be being shipped back to France from North America. M16's for the Scots...?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Very true. I think the downside to supplying ex French Army gear is that like the Famas rifles they'd be fairly easy to trace back to source and lead to an increase in tensions between HMG and the French. I've always assumed that the French have a stock of German and Dutch Army weapons and equipment that they captured during the occupation of the Rhineland and the Netherlands. If they supplied the Scots with Uzis, G3's etc HMG might have a fairly good idea where they've come from but proving it would be another matter.

Another area I've considered is that the French presence in Quebec means that all sorts of things (including weapons) could be being shipped back to France from North America. M16's for the Scots...?

Absolutely true, I think I was pondering it all from the viewpoint that there was too little of HMG to be able to check it all out. Sure the weapons are French but how can they prove that the French gave them the weapons and the Scots didn't buy/barter them?
Now that you mention weapons through Canada, how about a bulk load of Ruger Mini-14 and AC556 rifles to supplement the M16s?

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

1. The IRA had stockpiles of weapons largely obtained from Communist and US sources (AKs, AMD rifles, RPG-7s, M60s, M1 carbines) and they most certainly did have AR-18 in rifle and carbine form. I believe the British troops in Northern Ireland referred to it as the Widow Maker. The police in Northern Ireland had Mini-14 rifles and also I think M1 carbines. Weapons captured or bought from the Irish para-militaries could provide all sorts of exotic weapons (compared to the normal UK gear).
Also, the Irish Army changed from the L1A1 to the AUG in 1988 I think, so that too could be available for UK campaigns.

Terrorist stock piles are a great potential source of weapons for Twilight. Over the years here no end of exotic weaponry has turned up which could be handy enough to throw a curveball to your players For example the Loughgall attack in May 1987 involved the use of three G3's, an FN FAL, two FNC's a ruger revolver (taken from a murdered police officer) and a SPAS 12 shotgun. Weapons that I've seen in phots range from AK's to Garands to G3's, FNC's, M16's, AR18's - pretty much anything you fancy. SMG's have included Stens, Thompsons, MP5's, Uzi's and Scorpions. Heavier weapons are also available, ranging from M60's through DShka's to RPG's, SAM-7's and even flamethrowers. Also, don't discount the home made weapons. The IRA in particular were very adept at improvising weapons ranging from zip gun type pistols up to huge 'barrack buster' mortars. I'll try and dig out some photos of weapon finds and scan them in here. In the mean time here are a couple of links about what the IRA decommisioned that might give you an idea of the scale of armaments they had plus a few other articles;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisi...ms_importation

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4284048.stm

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...e/weapons.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisi...and_operations

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violen...amilitary2.htm

http://amodestpublication.wordpress....-machine-guns/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrack_buster

Hope that gives you some scope

[TiggerCCW UK]

Should also have added in the last post that the standard army weapons were in use over here - initially SLR's, Sterlings, Brens and GPMG's as well as a small number of Carl Gustaf recoilless rifles, mostly used in an EOD role, although I think some were used on patrol boats on Carlingford Lough, then SA-80/L85's and LSW/L86's. Standard police weapons were Ruger Service 6 revolvers, Walther PP and PPK for off duty carry, Sterlings and M1 carbines up until the early '80s when the M1's were replaced with Ruger Mini-14/AC556 - not entirely sure which model, iirc they could burst fire but not full auto. In the mid '90s the police swapped to MP-5's and HK 33's and in the early 00's the ruger was replaced with the Glock 17. Irish Army were equipped with FN FAL and Sterlings (again iirc) until they were replaced with the AUG. Army Ranger Wing used MP-5's and M16s and the Garda special branch used a variety of revolvers, shotguns and Uzi's (again iirc). I'll try and dig out some more info on that for you as well.