DC group work = Canon Version 1.5

[kato13]

Since the DC group canon "debate" seems to be bubbling up again, I have say the following.

If the DC Group ever decides to post their work and if this is still an active forum at the time I am unilaterally declaring their work to be Canon version 1.5 . This will be the law of the land on MY forum.

Given their volume of research, the fact that they have worked longer and harder than anyone else (including the original GDW staff, but probably excluding Paul) and they have been given an approving nod by one of the games creators, I personally feel this is fair. It will also end this argument once an for all. I have literally agonized over this decision because as most of you know I am a pretty light handed admin and imposing my will on others is not something I am comfortable with. However for the overall greater good of the T2k world I feel this has to be done.

Of course anyone can chose to ignore any or all portions of the New 1.5 canon version or to consider it to be as radical of a departure from the V 1.0 canon as version 3.0 is.

I considered putting this up to a vote but did not want the hassle nor ambiguity of an internet poll as any such poll is susceptible to fraud.

However if someone considers this to be an egregious abuse of my admin powers you are free to seek another person to host the forum. If someone else wishes to host the site, a poll must be created on moving the whole site (lock, stock and barrel) to a new location. Such a poll must be posted within the next 90 days or within 45 days of the DC groups posting of their material, it must be anonymous, it must last at least 45 days, and it will be determined by a simple majority. I don't feel the need to worry about fraud on this one because if someone wants to commit fraud to remove me as admin then I really don't want to be here.

If such a vote goes against my continued operation of the site, I will do all the work necessary to move the site including donating my copy of the software to the cause.

Thank you for your attention on this.

-kato13

[Webstral]

I'm not touching this one.

Webstral

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Webstral

I'm not touching this one.

Webstral

If this explodes so be it. If someone wants to take over for me (and a majority of votes support a move) let I will GLADLY give up the reins.

[Webstral]

I, for one, am quite happy with the reins right where they are.

Webstral

[Targan]

Its your forum Kato so of course you have every right to make such a pronouncement. What if you set up a sub forum for the DC Working Group's works? In the same way that the Traveller 2300 forum has a sub forum called Spake's Non-Cannon 2300 Setting? That way anyone who has any major issues with the DC Working Group's work can just not visit that sub forum. No mess, no fuss, and no excuse in the future for any bad blood. For that matter perhaps we could have a Twilight 2013 sub forum as well?

Originally Posted by Webstral

I, for one, am quite happy with the reins right where they are.

Seconded.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Targan

Its your forum Kato so of course you have every right to make such a pronouncement. What if you set up a sub forum for the DC Working Group's works? In the same way that the Traveller 2300 forum has a sub forum called Spake's Non-Cannon 2300 Setting? That way anyone who has any major issues with the DC Working Group's work can just not visit that sub forum. No mess, no fuss, and no excuse in the future for any bad blood. For that matter perhaps we could have a Twilight 2013 sub forum as well?

Too many sub-forums weakens a community IMO. This also open up the question of moving all existing posts which some might not consider "canon" into other sub categories. Overall I am against that.

If, after the DC group provides their material, there is a groundswell of support for such a partitioning I will consider it, but from my read of things there probably will not be.

[Dog 6]

Canon Version 1.5 has my vote

[StainlessSteelCynic]

How can it be canon when it hasn't been legally authorised by the original authors?

[kato13]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

How can it be canon when it hasn't been legally authorised by the original authors?

It is because I say so.

I don't think the DC group even cares about being "canon". I am just ending this argument.

I have already spelled out the course of action if you object.

This would be my recommended hosting option for anyone who wishes to take over.
http://www.urljet.com/vbulletin-hosting.php

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Kato I am fairly certain nobody here wants to see you leave or see you stop hosting this site. I am quite confident that nobody would vote against you if it was even put to a vote.
From what I have seen of this site and what I have been told about the previous one, this group of people have been incredibly civil to each other compared to many other forums on the net, especially considering the wide range of views and thoughts we have.

The whole debate about canon seems to have been taken far too personally by some of us. Twilight 2000 canon does not simply come into being because we desire it to be so however I don't see your statement as being an abuse of your admin powers but I do see it as the reaction of someone who is probably overworked and underappreciated and perhaps frustrated by all that.

I can understand that but I do believe everyone here is supportive of you even if they don't necessarily support the same things as you. Please don't see critiques of someone else's work as a criticism of them and more importanly, you and please don't feel that you have to take immediate drastic action if something looks as though it may flare up. I believe most people here will pull back before letting it get out of hand - maybe some of us just need to be given a gentle hint sometimes but generally we all get along.

And please do not see my non-acceptance of any work not officially sanctioned by the original authors as canon as being in any way critical of you or this forum. I do object to having something not authorised by the original authors being called 'canon' but that in no way means I want to see this forum explode because of that or see you shut it down or that I do not want to see anyone use that material. It also does not mean that I am saying nobody can or should use that material.

I would like to believe that we can all engage in some healthy debate and have it understood that we are critiquing an idea/notion/the material and not attacking the person (even if it does get a little heated, we are only human and some of us are quite passionate about our likes).

However I do feel very strongly that threatening such drastic action over this particular issue just makes people feel uneasy about discussing anything potentially contentious and that sort of thing usually ends in people being very reserved and preferring to not comment because they worry it will be taken the wrong way.
I for one would rather see people get involved in a debate about such things rather than sit back & say nothing for fear of offending anyone - when everyone sits back for fear of upsetting someone, it means no posts are made and that just leads to the death of the thread, or worse, the forum.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by kato13

This would be my recommended hosting option for anyone who wishes to take over.
http://www.urljet.com/vbulletin-hosting.php

Far too much work! I'm writing and doing researches between 6-10 hours a day (7 days a week sometimes). Of course, most of it doesn't concern T2K materials (done for fun only) but, trust me, you must be somewhat insane to do that.

Still, I consider what Kato has done running this forum way above it and I'm convinced he is more of a fool than I am (or brave, you choose). I have been supporting Kato since the beginning and I'll continue to go by his word. Thanks (that's an understatement) and I hope to see this forum around for a long time.

If not for Kato, I would not have had these great brainstormings (and occasional contests) with all of you.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

However I do feel very strongly that threatening such drastic action over this particular issue just makes people feel uneasy about discussing anything potentially contentious and that sort of thing usually ends in people being very reserved and preferring to not comment because they worry it will be taken the wrong way.
I for one would rather see people get involved in a debate about such things rather than sit back & say nothing for fear of offending anyone - when everyone sits back for fear of upsetting someone, it means no posts are made and that just leads to the death of the thread, or worse, the forum.

After this argument I saw a greater than 66% reduction in posts, threads and unique visitors. It was like a punch in the gut to me after my hard work to build this forum and track down our displaced users.

I kept hoping this would end on its own, but when there is a post trying to entice the DC groups back it rears it ugly head again.

I simply can't stand it anymore. So I AM ending it.

This was not a rash decision. I spent months thinking about this. I looked at all the angles and after much thought this is what I came up with and it will stand.

[cavtroop]

This is OK with me. I love the DC group stuff.

I'd like to see a sub-forum for the DC group, where only they can post (but anyone can read), setup for them to put the information in. All discussions on the info would take place in the main forum, but the sub-forum would give a location to find all of the info easily, and in one place. I'd also love to see the same setup for Webstrals information. Having all that info in one place, easy to get to, would be great.

[fightingflamingo]

This sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

[General Pain]

Keep doing your excellent work.

I must admit I don't care diddlysquat about canon-this or that...I myselft prefer the other meaning of the word "canon"...yup those things that go booooom..

I'm gratefull for this site and for the hours my fellow posters/designers/gms/players have put into it. Anyway as it have been said before - It's just a game. And if someone makes new rules/timelines/maps or whatnot nobody are pressuring anyone to use it in their campaigns....

There's far more disturbing things we could argue and bicker about.

For god's sake don't move the site!!!!!!!!!

GP

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by General Pain

Keep doing your excellent work.

I must admit I don't care diddlysquat about canon-this or that...I myselft prefer the other meaning of the word "canon"...yup those things that go booooom..

I'm gratefull for this site and for the hours my fellow posters/designers/gms/players have put into it. Anyway as it have been said before - It's just a game. And if someone makes new rules/timelines/maps or whatnot nobody are pressuring anyone to use it in their campaigns....

There's far more disturbing things we could argue and bicker about.

For god's sake don't move the site!!!!!!!!!

GP

Well put General - I totally agree with everything you've said.

[kato13]

I just want to reiterate that any discussion of moving the site was a reflection of my feeling that I potentially failed as an admin. I did not mean it as a threat. Like I said I agonized over this decision. I reviewed all options. Every path had an element I was uncomfortable with in terms of my will superseding that of the group. That is why i felt putting my future as admin in the hands of the group felt fair to me.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by kato13

I kept hoping this would end on its own, but when there is a post trying to entice the DC groups back it rears it ugly head again.

Kato, I hope you're not referring to my post in the "Dear Santa" thread. I was simply stating that I missed the DC Group's contributions, hypothesizing an explanation for their lengthy absence, and trying to encourage them to come back. I was not trying to stir the pot or light the fuse. If I opened old wounds, then I am truly sorry, for that was never my intent.

It's your forum, Kato, so it's your call. I hope you keep it right where it is. IMHO, you've done a fine job and this isn't the first time I've said so.

For the most part, I appreciate the DC Group's contributions. I enjoy reading everyone's take on the Twilight World. I pick and choose what I want to include in mine. Everyone has (and should continue to have) the freedom to use or ignore fan-generated materials. Heck, everyone has the freedom to use or ignore the "official" GDW-produced materials! As far as I'm concerned, the matter of what is or is not canon is really moot. Some of us fall into a very conservative interpretation of what canon is while others here are more liberal. That's fine. We are all T2Kers and we need to try to stick together. I, for one, really regret taking part in any debate regarding what canon is or was or should be. If I'd known this was going to happen, I would have stayed completely out of it.

That said, from now on, I think I'll be reluctant to share dissenting opinions here. Perhaps my own self imposed exhile is in order...

Kato, I hope you stick around as admin.

[kato13]

Rae it is not you buddy. So don't worry.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by kato13

I just want to reiterate that any discussion of moving the site was a reflection of my feeling that I potentially failed as an admin. I did not mean it as a threat. Like I said I agonized over this decision. I reviewed all options. Every path had an element I was uncomfortable with in terms of my will superseding that of the group. That is why i felt putting my future as admin in the hands of the group felt fair to me.

Kato. You should not feel that way. IMO you have done very well and still do. It was great to have someone to care for those MIA (including myself at some point), to get rid of intruders, bring back wisdom when needed...

For my part, I hope you remain our admin. If you need any help (although I'm a few thousand kilometers away and might not have the proper knowledge) just ask.

To be honest, you don't give easily to anger and show some real patience. If it had been my forum, I would have shot it done and that would have been a terrible mistake.

[Ironside]

As a newcomer to this site I have to say that I found the DC Group's posts fascinating reading and I would hate to see them discontinue posting.

Looking at the archived posts I can see that Kato has done an incredible amount of work and I am very appreciative of it. (I still haven't finished looking through the archived posts, and I keep finding gems in them ) Kato, IMO this is your board, you do the hard work and we are your guests; all I can do is thank you for all your hard work.

Having the DC Group material as timeline V1.5 seems an excellent idea.

[Benjamin]

I think everyone here should take a note from what happened to the old 2300AD Yahoo groups. Certain people there were such sticklers to canon that the atmosphere became very vile. This led to the formation of a distinct NonCanon group but the damage was done and participation decreased dramatically. Even when the much anticipated 2320 finally came out activity stayed low. (Albeit the publisher of 2320 totally crapped it all to hell.)

Don't let that happen here. Like any RPG its up to the Players and GMs to determine what they are going to use or discard. Canon be damned. Kato is doing a great job, the forum has constant activity and is a really civil place to post and discuss. If Kato wants to declare something canon, as it pertains to these boards, than so be it. He and the DC Group can't beam it into your brains at night and they can't lord over your own games. So you are still free to pick and choose.

I say Good Job Kato, I'll still be here lurking around.

Benjamin

[micromachine]

Hello All;

I seldom post and enjoy all of the varied opinions that have been posted here. However, we must give kudos to Kato for keeping this group together and thriving. Without his effort, we would be blundering about the web like a bunch of lovesick cattle.
"Canon" or Non canon" do not have a place here, as both notions are acceptable to me. I enjoy the material too much to let another's opinion cloud my interpretation of the T2K world.
Kato, please keep up the good work and I hope that you will continue your tenure as admin.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by kato13

I just want to reiterate that any discussion of moving the site was a reflection of my feeling that I potentially failed as an admin. I did not mean it as a threat. Like I said I agonized over this decision. I reviewed all options. Every path had an element I was uncomfortable with in terms of my will superseding that of the group. That is why i felt putting my future as admin in the hands of the group felt fair to me.

Kato I understand what you did and why you did it but please, please, please don't ever think that you have failed as an admin here because you most certainly have not. I understand your viewpoint, I just hope you understand why I don't agree with it and why it does not mean that I don't support this website and your administration of it.

[Legbreaker]

http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=10

What he said...

From my perspective, I've no problem with anything anyone does as long as they don't (or others on their behalf) demand it be taken as canon if it's not been authorised by the original producers of the game.

The vast amount of work produced by Moe, Webstral, and the DC group (amongst others) falls squarely into this category. It's not canon, but it makes some damn fine reading and has some very good ideas that can be translated into almost anyone's game world.

As far as a drop in post rates, visitors, etc, this happens from time to time. Maybe something was happening in the world during that period which meant those who may normally have looked in were busy doing something else with their time (maybe it was just that the lawns needed mowing - who knows?)

A lack of visitors and posts should not be taken personally although I certainly understand the feeling. It's hard not to feel negative when there's no obvious explaination.

Kato, you've built a great little corner of the net here in a relatively short period of time. We might have the odd "spirited" debate now and then, but without debate all we're doing is patting each other on the back and not growing. Sure, like any family we've had a few occasional blow ups, but it's rather doubtful there's ever been any true bad blood - the majority of the time it's likely to be simple misunderstanding (damn hard to convey emotion and other subtlties by text alone).

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by micromachine

Hello All;

I seldom post and enjoy all of the varied opinions that have been posted here. However, we must give kudos to Kato for keeping this group together and thriving. Without his effort, we would be blundering about the web like a bunch of lovesick cattle.
"Canon" or Non canon" do not have a place here, as both notions are acceptable to me. I enjoy the material too much to let another's opinion cloud my interpretation of the T2K world.
Kato, please keep up the good work and I hope that you will continue your tenure as admin.

Couldn't say it better myself.

[Cdnwolf]

KATO 13 - Don't you ever ever think of leaving... we will track you down and bring you back kicking and screaming...

CANON 1.5 has my vote. Now lock the thread and lets all caring on playing the game.

[Caradhras]

I have been looking in here with the odd post whilst running my T2K campaign for quite a while, not a lot compared to some I know.

As has already been said - it is a very mature and intelligent group especially compared to other forums. Post have been down recently and I was wondering why and disappointed, even when playing a different game (as we are atm) it is well worth popping in here for the reading.

I know the canon is vital to some of you that put in huge amounts of time and thought, but to the majority (I guess?) we either dont care or adapt it ourselves to suit.

As far as this forum goes, it's Kato's and if he wants a canon to be the 'official' one for this forum - then sure thing np imo (not that my vote counts for much.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Caradhras

I have been looking in here with the odd post whilst running my T2K campaign for quite a while, not a lot compared to some I know.

As has already been said - it is a very mature and intelligent group especially compared to other forums. Post have been down recently and I was wondering why and disappointed, even when playing a different game (as we are atm) it is well worth popping in here for the reading.

I know the canon is vital to some of you that put in huge amounts of time and thought, but to the majority (I guess?) we either dont care or adapt it ourselves to suit.

As far as this forum goes, it's Kato's and if he wants a canon to be the 'official' one for this forum - then sure thing np imo (not that my vote counts for much.

I feel much the same way .
I dont care either way .As long as the forum stays safe and alive .

Someone wants to call it canon - go right ahead .
Its canon v1.5 and everyone is free to use as they see fit .There are v.1.0,2.0,2.1,2.2 and 2013 to choose from ,and now 1.5 not to mention all the heretical apocryfa out there ..

I must admit I am a bit shocked that the discussion is putting people off the forum etc .Everyone has their own view-we share them and discuss -thats the way it i ssupposed to be.

Whatever problems anyone has had about someones material and their claiming it is canon or denying it to be ,I sure hope that the process to forget and move on is begun.

Scandinavians are mostly heretic heathens anyway - we run our own timelines most of us ...

lets not splinter - we are few and the hordes of non players are limitless..

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I feel much the same way .
I dont care either way .As long as the forum stays safe and alive .

Someone wants to call it canon - go right ahead .
Its canon v1.5 and everyone is free to use as they see fit .There are v.1.0,2.0,2.1,2.2 and 2013 to choose from ,and now 1.5 not to mention all the heretical apocryfa out there ..

I must admit I am a bit shocked that the discussion is putting people off the forum etc .Everyone has their own view-we share them and discuss -thats the way it i ssupposed to be.

Whatever problems anyone has had about someones material and their claiming it is canon or denying it to be ,I sure hope that the process to forget and move on is begun.

Scandinavians are mostly heretic heathens anyway - we run our own timelines most of us ...

lets not splinter - we are few and the hordes of non players are limitless..

...and I thought that it was everyone else that was a heretic hehe