Ireland/Northern Ireland Timeline

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by RN7

Well I dunno, 176 Provost Company was actually part of 2nd Regiment RMP which I think has now been disbanded, while I have since seen that 254 Provost Company (Volunteers) TA which I think has been disbanded, was also in Northern Ireland and part of the 2nd Regiment. 243 Provost Company (Volunteers) was based in Scotland but 8 detachment was in Ireland, and 243 Provost Company was part of the 5th Regiment RMP which was HQ in Germany along with 1st Regiment RMP. 3rd & 4th regiments RMP seem to be mainly home based units but none of their units were in Ireland. Not much logic to it at all I'm afraid!

Totally agree...Regiments and Companies seem to have been disbanded and then reformed with some regularity, making it a bit of a headache trying to work out which units would have been in NI at any given time.

Originally Posted by RN7

The only problem here would be that the 36th (Ulster) Division was disbanded in 1919 and never reformed, even during WW2. However one of its brigades (107th) was active until 2006 and present in Ireland. An oversized largely UDR infantry brigade or a brigade group padded out by a small number of army and TA regulars may have been more realistic.

Yep, valid point...either of those options would also work...

Cheers

[Dog 6]

"November 1 1997 — The IRA sink the HMS Helford, HMS Blackwater, HMS Itchen, HMS Orwell, and HMS Spey moored HM Naval Base Clyde; with 106mm Cannons mounted on motorboats."


Anyone have any idea how many 106mm RR rounds it would take to sink each ship?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

Anyone have any idea how many 106mm RR rounds it would take to sink each ship?

Just one if placed in the right location. Of course finding that location might take numerous attempts.

As a rule though, I'd imagine holes above the waterline aren't going to do much good, and 106mm RCL aren't exactly all that effective through water....

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

"November 1 1997 — The IRA sink the HMS Helford, HMS Blackwater, HMS Itchen, HMS Orwell, and HMS Spey moored HM Naval Base Clyde; with 106mm Cannons mounted on motorboats."


Anyone have any idea how many 106mm RR rounds it would take to sink each ship?

I think the other important issue is what kind of vessels were they? If for example they were the small coastal minesweepers the British had during that period, they were wooden hull (or fibreglass I don't recall exactly).

Hmm, doing a quick check of the web, the Helford was a minehunter ship, unfortunately it was transferred to the Bangladeshi navy in 1994. The picture looks as though it has a metal hull but would it have the same level of armour as say a frigate? The 106mm rounds were at least the equivalent of a 105mm tank round so they would have some ability to damage a ship.
It seems that at least half of the ships mentioned are minehunters and they are rather small
http://www.oldships.org.uk/SHIPS/SHI...ORD_DETAIL.htm
http://www.oldships.org.uk/SHIPS/SHI...TER_DETAIL.htm
http://www.oldships.org.uk/SHIPS/SHI...EN_DETAILS.htm

[Canadian Army]

I did some checking the River-Class were built with a traditional steel hull to a design based on a commercial offshore support vessel. The class was designed to be operated as deep sea team sweepers, to combat the threat posed to submarines by Soviet deep-water buoyant moored mines codenamed "Cluster Bay".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_class_minesweeper

Here is picture from wikipedia of the HMS Orwell in the Bay of Biscay en route to Gibraltar, 1990

[Rainbow Six]

Also, HMNB Clyde is home to the Royal Navy's ballistic missile subs, so would be fairly heavily guarded by, amongst others, the Royal Marines' Commachio Group.

I'd have thought PIRA would be better off using any recoilless rifles they had against British vehicles in Ulster...I can't see any benefit to them in sinking five minesweepers in Scottish waters (other than as a propaganda coup perhaps).

Cheers

[Mohoender]

Wouldn't it be nicer to have them using divers as the Italians did in 1941 when they sunk the Queen Elisabeth and Valiant?

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Also, HMNB Clyde is home to the Royal Navy's ballistic missile subs, so would be fairly heavily guarded by, amongst others, the Royal Marines' Commachio Group.

I'd have thought PIRA would be better off using any recoilless rifles they had against British vehicles in Ulster...I can't see any benefit to them in sinking five minesweepers in Scottish waters (other than as a propaganda coup perhaps).

Cheers

The wiki page on Commachio states by the late 80s it was over 400 strong. I can't really see PIRA getting 106mm RRs in place there. Now the Baltic and/or Northern Fleet Naval Spetsnaz Brigades are another story (SSBNs might be a priority for them?), and they have access to all kinds of goodies, like AT-4 missiles.

Just saying...

[Sanjuro]

I also have some issues with PIRA being able to sink those minesweepers; firstly, mounting weapons that big on a motorboat is a lot more difficult than it sounds (British merchant vessels were only able to be armed during WW2 because they were legally required to have the mountings, and under-deck bracing, as part of British registry)- even a recoilless rifle is going to be difficult. Actually hitting the target would be very difficult- the lower Clyde and Firth of Clyde are rarely entirely calm, so keeping small motorboats stable enough for multiple shots would be very difficult. Probably the only practical weapons for the job would be the RPG7- and that means getting close, and being exposed to defending fire.
Secondly, as others have posted, the Clyde Naval base is defended by troops who are trained and prepared for Spetsnatz type attacks; small boats are one of the threats they expect.
Thirdly, the Clyde Boom would have been closed; sure, the boats could go through the Kyles of Bute and bypass the boom, but in wartime the Kyles would be unlit at night.
Finally, in wartime the Clyde's usual busy traffic of yachts and small craft is going to be greatly reduced, making the attackers much more visible.
In peacetime, the attack is barely feasible; in wartime, a suicide mission, with little prospect of success.