Alternate version of New America...

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Has anyone else changed New America in their campaigns from a bunch of right-wing redneck racist christo-facsit wackos? espeically since every attempt at creating these far 'right-wing' fringe racist groups to work together has aways failed (even when they are all Neo-Nazis whom only differ in their charismatic leadership).

Pardon me while I attempt to resurrect this thread. Elsewhere in the forum some ideas were being kicked around regarding New America's methods and goals, and it got me thinking about how hard it would be to sell Carl Hughes "Natural Aristocracy" to the average American.

And again, it's going to be extremely difficult for most of these right-wing groups to work together. Hell, even left-wing groups constantly split over issues of nit-picky dogma and clashes over leadership (disguised as clashes over dogma) all the time. But New America is the right-wing threat to America, not the left-wing threat. The Soviets have that covered (mostly).

So back to New America. I think that for New America to grow to be a major threat to MilGov and CivGov that it needs to be more like an infiltrating conspiracy and more like a mystery cult.

As an infiltrating conspiracy New America has sent out agents during the 1980s and early 1990s to joined many of the groups that New America wants to bring under its control. This includes anything from populist anti-federal and anti-tax groups, groups that advocate the use of violence to promote a white nationalist agenda, and even groups that have moved into outright criminal activity: assassinations, bank robberies, bombings, etc.. Of course, I think NA would mostly steer clear of the groups that are actually engaging in criminal activity (like the Order) because they want to avoid the scrutiny of the FBI, ATF and other law enforcement agencies.

New America wouldn't have to bring all these groups under the NA banner before the war, but the NA agents in these diverse groups are the guys who bring in much needed resources: cash, high tech equipment and even illegal weapons. Once the bombs fall and resources run thin, it's the NA members of these groups who have all the answers. They know where the NA supply caches are. They might even arrange for a NA supply drop. They have contact with higher headquarters who can provide intelligence about everything from the movement of marauders and refugees to weather patterns and even medical advice. They might even be able to call on reinforcements from other NA cells or right wing groups controlled by NA cells. The NA agents rise through the ranks of their adopted organization until they have enough influence to sell the Michigan Militia (for example) on adopting the banner of New America. This last stage would be the most difficult and might never be accomplished, leaving a splinter group like The Order or Posse Comitatus remain merely "New America-influenced" rather than out-right controlled.

One wonders if there is a big map in NA's Country Home HQ color coded to show which groups have declared openly for NA, which groups are controlled by NA agents but remain independent, which have been infiltrated but remain independent, and even groups targeted for infiltration. That could certainly include MilGov and CivGov garrisons.

As a mystery cult, New America's agenda and goals are hidden not only from the general public, but also from the rank and file membership. In this way they resemble Scientology. If you presented the "final revelations" of Scientology to the average follower of Scientology and Dianetics on day 1 (i.e. the whole Xenu-atomic bomb-volcano-soul thing) they would walk away from a clearly ridiculous belief system. However, if New America starts out disguising it's agenda so that none of the members get the full picture until they are fully committed to the movement, then they can get more people in the front door. Once the new members are fully committed to New America, the full agenda is revealed. Now it's too late to back out, or maybe the new member has come to accept the groupthink, like any cult.

New America could also tailor its public agenda to fit the needs of the regional cells. In the Bible Belt, they could sell themselves as a movement to rebuild America as a Christian Nation. In the southwest they could present themselves as a resistance movement fighting the invasion by the Mexican Army (and advocating the expulsion of all "Mexicans" from America). The New America doctrine of Natural Aristocracy could be presented more like Ayn Rand's Objectivism, where only those who contribute are worthy of citizenship. Later, the racial component is introduced, by which time the new member is already committed or has even decided not to care because it's not his or her ox that's being gored.

It would be interesting if the players traveled across the country and encountered different groups that advocate wildly different agendas, but all of which claim to be New America. In an age without mass communications, the variations in public agenda might be overlooked. Without the ability to compare what the cell in Arizona is saying, to what the cell in Idaho is saying to what the cell in Georgia is saying, it's going to be hard for the average person to realize that New America is changing its message to tell people what they want to hear.

Through these two methods, New America can be even more of a threat to life and liberty in North America, without straining the players' credulity.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[kato13]

Originally Posted by sglancy12

Pardon me while I attempt to resurrect this thread.

Thread necromancy is encouraged.

[waiting4something]

I think it would be cool just to have a secret organization of bad ass Americans that have been training and preparing for hard times whether it be from a foreign or domestic enemy. They don't have to be bible thumpers or racist people, just people that see American government as a broken down machine that is only gonna get worse. I thought the New Americans were the cooler of the 3 groups. When everyone in the USA was living in a dream land these guys were building and preparing for survival. I don't think they could be is large scale as they were in the book and kept secret, but that's just me. The book also made them out to be substandard fighters, which I found weird since they were the only ones with war on there minds the whole time since the 1970's.

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I think it would be cool just to have a secret organization of bad ass Americans that have been training and preparing for hard times whether it be from a foreign or domestic enemy.

I think they called that The Morrow Project. If you are not familiar with it I suggest you check out that post-apocalyptic setting.

Originally Posted by waiting4something

They don't have to be bible thumpers or racist people, just people that see American government as a broken down machine that is only gonna get worse.

That's pretty much the people New America wants to recruit, even if those people wouldn't want to be part of New America if they understood it's agenda.

Originally Posted by waiting4something

When everyone in the USA was living in a dream land these guys were building and preparing for survival. I don't think they could be is large scale as they were in the book and kept secret, but that's just me. The book also made them out to be substandard fighters, which I found weird since they were the only ones with war on there minds the whole time since the 1970's.

Well, I certainly agree that the size of the organization beggars the imagination. Unless the FBI and ATF all took a collective vacation, it requires a great deal of suspension of disbelief to imagine that an organization with the money and manpower of New America could exist.

I think the reason that New America's troops are made out to be substandard (or at least sub-standard to US troops who've just spent three years fighting the Red Army), is that most New America recruits were envisioned to be arm-chair warriors. The kind of guys who read Soldier of Fortune and Guns & Ammo, but who've never been willing to give up their time to actually serve their country. Posers, in other words.

I don't fully agree with that idea since there's no reason to expect that extremists ripe for recruitment by New America couldn't also be veterans of the US military. Timothy McVeigh for instance. The authors of the original TW2K seemed to believe that the culture of the military would weed guys like that out. Personally, I think the military culture just encourages guys like that to keep their mouths shut so they are harder to identify.

Certainly there's no reason why some NA cells couldn't be as deadly as the Holonists as they were portrayed in David Brin's novel The Postman. In the novel, the average Holonist was worth something like 10 militia men from any other group. After all, just because they have an evil ideology doesn't mean they can't be courageous and talented warriors. Just look at the Waffen SS or the Taliban.

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I thought the New Americans were the cooler of the 3 groups.

I'm not sure how to say this without it coming off as a cheap shot, but I'd really like to hear your reasoning behind this conclusion.


A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by sglancy12

I think they called that The Morrow Project. If you are not familiar with it I suggest you check out that post-apocalyptic setting.



That's pretty much the people New America wants to recruit, even if those people wouldn't want to be part of New America if they understood it's agenda.



Well, I certainly agree that the size of the organization beggars the imagination. Unless the FBI and ATF all took a collective vacation, it requires a great deal of suspension of disbelief to imagine that an organization with the money and manpower of New America could exist.

I think the reason that New America's troops are made out to be substandard (or at least sub-standard to US troops who've just spent three years fighting the Red Army), is that most New America recruits were envisioned to be arm-chair warriors. The kind of guys who read Soldier of Fortune and Guns & Ammo, but who've never been willing to give up their time to actually serve their country. Posers, in other words.

I don't fully agree with that idea since there's no reason to expect that extremists ripe for recruitment by New America couldn't also be veterans of the US military. Timothy McVeigh for instance. The authors of the original TW2K seemed to believe that the culture of the military would weed guys like that out. Personally, I think the military culture just encourages guys like that to keep their mouths shut so they are harder to identify.

Certainly there's no reason why some NA cells couldn't be as deadly as the Holonists as they were portrayed in David Brin's novel The Postman. In the novel, the average Holonist was worth something like 10 militia men from any other group. After all, just because they have an evil ideology doesn't mean they can't be courageous and talented warriors. Just look at the Waffen SS or the Taliban.



I'm not sure how to say this without it coming off as a cheap shot, but I'd really like to hear your reasoning behind this conclusion.


A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

I was counting on someone to have issues with me saying that. Well, think about it New America grew up on it's own. No government funding, no pay check for joining, no reason for being there accept you wanna be. That's what I dig.
Yes, it's clear as day that they try to portray the New Americans as some loony toon 3rd Reich wannabe cult. I mean they just try to make them the ultimate bad guys to make the Twilight World more interesting. Your hereos can only be as good as your bad guys are bad. If you just had Civ Gov and Mil Gov fighting each other alone the story would be more blah. Civ and Mil gov are really not all that much different in some ways. They are both made up old of politics just one is more in favor of a marshal law type atmoshpere.
As far as New Americans being lesser warriors because they were not Europe or the Middle East, meh I don't know. Every unit has dirt bags period. I lot of how good people are in my own opion is do to morale. I have seen good units turn bad just from a simple change of command and vice versa. The Americans returning would have most likely had better weapons handling and understanding of tactics, but they were fighting convetionally too. Now home in the USA it's all guerrrilla warfare, which the New Americans and the State side military have been doing.
That's just my view, wrong or right.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I was counting on someone to have issues with me saying that. Well, think about it New America grew up on it's own. No government funding, no pay check for joining, no reason for being there accept you wanna be. That's what I dig.

As a child of the cold war I respected survivalists. I often had questions about many of their opinions on certain matters, but the go it alone mentality was interesting to me. I realize now I would never have been emotionally distant enough to be a successful one if the balloon went up (I would have ended up trying to help too many people), but planning to be one was a fun logistical exercise to me back in the day.

The fundamental problem is how do you unify what are by nature rugged individualists. The canon "New America" does this by instilling a sense or superiority and vilifying an external enemy. As has been seen in history that really can work.

I did not like that solution so I made them anti-government, anti refugee and strongly anti immigrant. This makes them a bit more of a gray enemy in my opinion. It also probably weakens the bonds between cells. However a charismatic leader can still motivate a majority of them.

[Webstral]

While I also have my doubts about how secret an organization like New America could be, New America makes for good story-telling. One can tweak NA to fit one's own limitations on suspension of disbelief. I've never been big on New America, but the organization can serve a purpose.

I like the Neo-Nazi racism foundation for New America because for me it taps into some very deep, dark stuff. For better or for worse, my father was a history major at a liberal arts college. I grew up on WW2 history. I got a stiff dose of Holocaust awareness in my at-the-dinner-table and riding-in-the-car and fishing-at-the-local-pond education. Flash forward in time, and I'm married to a woman whose parents are African-American and Asian-American. To the Neo-Nazis, Klansmen, and Aryan Brothers of the nation, my son is an abomination, while I am a blood traitor. I like having the story-telling tool of New America available specifically because I'm not remotely neutral about the New American racism.

Getting to the story-telling part, I have been sketching out ideas for the New American power in Idaho so I can show these guys in action. New America is a device for showing how the kind of evil that overtook Germany can overtake at least a slice of the American population. Not every white person in the Idaho cantonment has to be a racist. Like the Germans, the non-NA folks along the Snake River simply have to go along with the program.

In The Final Solution, a New American cell has enjoyed huge success in the Snake River Valley of Idaho. Unlike the Tampa New American organization, the Snake River New Americans have gone with a more traditional Holocaust-style of treatment of the untermenschen. Concentration camps have been set up, and the non-Aryan internees are worked to death. It's pretty straightforward, really.

From a story-telling standpoint, I get my dramatic release from two events. The first is the friction that develops between the Shogun in Nevada and the New Americas. The Shogun is a warlord, but he's an equal-opportunity warlord. He's Japanese-American, and the outward apsects of his army (the Gunryo) are heavily Japanese partially as a means of fostering internal cohesion among his troops. The Gunryo has a lot of bikers, but the few racists have been... weeded out. The Shogun gets wind of what is happening in Idaho and executes a major raid with his army of mobile marauders. He "liberates" a number of people from the concentration camp, then promptly adds them to the peasant population under his thumb in Nevada. Mind, I'm not trying to make the Shogun a hero. I just like the irony of the Shogun and New America being at each other's throats.

The second event is Operation Manifest Destiny. The Snake River has to be opened up to barge traffic so that the Colorado and the Puget Sound cantonments can be linked logistically. Skipping over the preparations to build an expeditionary force that can do the job (which could fill a thick novel), I imagine American troops gathered from all over the country (including a reinforced battalion from SAMAD) pushing forward an offensive to crush the New Americans and liberate the surviving Americans in the concentration camps. So yes, it's a fairly simple good v evil story for me. I happen to like it because it touches me in a very personal, very fundamental way.

Webstral

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Well, thing about it New America grew up on it's own. No government funding, no pay check for joining, no reason for being there accept you wanna be. That's what I dig.

Yeah well, that could also describe the RUF, the Sendero Luminoso, the Taliban, Al Queda, and the Khmer Rouge... none of which I would describe as "cool." Interesting maybe. Even fascinating... but not cool.

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Yes, it's clear as day that they try to portray the New Americans as some loony toon 3rd Reich wannabe cult.

The "they" to which you refer are the authors of the TW2K game setting. They don't have to try to portray the New Americans as some loony toon 3rd Reich wannabe cult because New America absolutely is a loony toon 3rd Reich wannabe cult.

You sound like you think the New Americans are getting a bad rap from the former staff writers at GDW.

Am I reading your comments correctly?

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[kalos72]

I will be honest, NA is good for my campaign as it gives the MILGOV/CIVGOV forces some ones else to worry about.

Personally, I see NA being the source of a fair amount of "rebuilding". Organizations with this much power tend to be a catalyst for other reforms and such to counter them as well.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by sglancy12

Yeah well, that could also describe the RUF, the Sendero Luminoso, the Taliban, Al Queda, and the Khmer Rouge... none of which I would describe as "cool." Interesting maybe. Even fascinating... but not cool.



The "they" to which you refer are the authors of the TW2K game setting. They don't have to try to portray the New Americans as some loony toon 3rd Reich wannabe cult because New America absolutely is a loony toon 3rd Reich wannabe cult.

You sound like you think the New Americans are getting a bad rap from the former staff writers at GDW.

Am I reading your comments correctly?

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

Well Robin Hood was pretty cool and he didn't go with the government grade and was self promoting too.

As far as "they" I I'm refering to the authors of TW2K. They are the ones that made the NA what they are, are they not? I mean they could have made them dudes that just where anti government, didn't like typical U.S. politics, or waiting for hard times ahead. No they made them to be the typical Hollywood racist redneck militia. And why not build them like the Nazi's they are the popular guys to hate on. Years of movies and TV have taught us well on that. Hell even the film Star Wars had bad guys based on Nazi's.
You Mention Khmer Rouge which I give you props for, because most people don't even know or remember them and they happened after the nazi's. Bad guys and the groups they run can be different from the nazi's yet this always goes unnoticed, because we are so brainwashed on what we are fed by the media. Hell some other evil could lurk up on us, because we are so focused on nazi's. Look at Africa do we know what happens there- no, we don't care. Why because they aren't popular.
So yeah the writers did make the NA bad guys. A group like that couldn't get that big, because everyone is looking for that type of evil. They could of made them less flamboyant bad guys or not bad guys at all, just another group that doesn't see eye to eye with the other two.