Alternate version of New America...

[waiting4something]

Well sglancy12, now that I see your views better and tend to agree with what you stated, I guess I can't argue with you anymore. I like seeing the Soviets as the bad guys too! But that's because commies are.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Well sglancy12, now that I see your views better and tend to agree with what you stated, I guess I can't argue with you anymore.

This thread teetered on the edge of going too political, but I am glad that we can come to a civil conclusion even on a very hot button topic. This forum can usually pull itself back from potential bad blood better than most forums. That is why I generally stay hands off, as we can usually talk it out. As is almost always the case, I am very proud of this forum and its members.

Kudos Gentlemen

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I like seeing the Soviets as the bad guys too! But that's because commies are.

In my homebrew timeline I prefer that the Red Chinese and Soviets patch up their ideological bickering because the hard liners in both governments realize that the real enemy is the their own domestic populace. They have to keep the citizens sufficiently cowed and sufficiently fed otherwise the pro-democracy movements will continue to grow, achieving what it did in real life: toppled regimes in Eastern Europe and the USSR as humpty dumpty.

I was never comfortable with the US helping Red China in the TW2K timelines. Not that I don't think we would have "played the China card," but supporting Red China in a Sino-Soviet war is too much like being in bed with Stalin during WWII. Gives me the creeps. I'd be happier just letting them hash it out amongst themselves.

So just to be clear, I think the US would have supported China during a Sino-Soviet war as envisioned by GDW, but I wouldn't have liked it.

And for reasons I've stated elsewhere, I think a prolonged conventional Twilight War is more likely if the PRC and the USSR are fighting against the West.

Somehow we have to get back on topic to New America.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[kalos72]

The more I ponder this topic, and the others regarding New America, I find myself asking this question.

Would a group of people, say a refugee camp or larger population that simply cant feed everyone start to "categorize" or "weigh" its citizens similar to the way NA does, only based on skills and usefulness rather then race and political beliefs?

I think its ENTIRELY possible to see that sort of "what have you done for me lately" attitude in larger groups under stress on just feeding themselves. If you live in a small town and are decently safe and fed, as per T2K standards go anyways, I doubt you would resort to this.

Perhaps NA cells, as they recruit more and more liberal minded people, the ones hiding it just to survive, the more those racial, elitist tendencies will get brushed aside. Especially for the cells that arent in direct contact with any sort of organized leadership any longer.

[Webstral]

In Thunder Empire, the populace of SAMAD all pretty much become government employees. They obtain a Government Service rank based on what they can do. If you have no skills but can work hard and have US citizenship, you become a GS1. Almost anybody can be used in the labor battalions. Those who can't work the fields or in construction still might have a place in the machine shops, which are always hungry for labor.

As has been said before, what sets New America aside is not their interest in triage. New America's motives are far different than, say, MilGov's or CivGov's. New America is looking to create an Aryan United States. With the possible exception of the Florida enclave, New American cells would value a white man with no skills more highly than a black or Hispanic doctor, agricultural specialist, chemist, or engineer. As a rule, MilGov or CivGov will be nearly color blind when it comes to valuable skills. (Racism hides in unexpected places.)

Webstral

[sglancy12]

Originally Posted by kalos72

The more I ponder this topic, and the others regarding New America, I find myself asking this question.

Would a group of people, say a refugee camp or larger population that simply cant feed everyone start to "categorize" or "weigh" its citizens similar to the way NA does, only based on skills and usefulness rather then race and political beliefs?

Like I said earlier: Life Boat Politics. Any group under sufficiently dire stress could end up making these kinds of decisions. What starts as an underfed refugee camps could end up turning into something like a low-tech version of the City from Logan's Run. Only instead of killing or driving off the old, the refugee camp drives out anyone who isn't contributing to the survival of the majority.

But there is something to consider. TW2K is usually set around two and a half years after the nuclear exchange. There have been two harsh winters and a kind of "nuclear autumn." Refugee camps have suffered massive casualties by this time. The old, the sick, the handicapped, the mentally impaired, the mentally ill... all these kinds of people may have been either Darwined or even Malthused out of the equation by either the environment or even their fellow humans. By the time the players arrive on the scene, the weakest (pre-war) links have probably been removed. The social triage will no doubt continue as people get sick and injured, but by the summer of 2000, most camps are going to be down to their hardiest members. Any triage in the face of food supplies is going to be based on the individual's skills and ability to help the group. Not just what has someone done in the past, but what can they do in the future. Of course anyone with skills who refuses to use them might be subjected to some very brutal persuasion.

Originally Posted by kalos72

I think its ENTIRELY possible to see that sort of "what have you done for me lately" attitude in larger groups under stress on just feeding themselves. If you live in a small town and are decently safe and fed, as per T2K standards go anyways, I doubt you would resort to this.

I've seen post apocalyptic fiction where the communities supplies were manipulated to create false shortages in order to prompt the community to conduct a lottery to determine who had to be kicked out into the wilderness. Of course the lottery was manipulated too to ensure that political and personal enemies were forced into exile. So don't think that some ruthless people couldn't evoke "lifeboat politics" to get what they want.

Originally Posted by kalos72

Perhaps NA cells, as they recruit more and more liberal minded people, the ones hiding it just to survive, the more those racial, elitist tendencies will get brushed aside. Especially for the cells that arent in direct contact with any sort of organized leadership any longer.

There is a TW2K scenario published in GDW's Challenge magazine issue #44 called "Crossburn." In it there is New America Cell that has broken with HQ because they realize if they throw talented "racial inferiors" out of the lifeboat, then the whole community is going to fail. They abandoned the orthodox racial agenda in favor of raw survival.

The scenario also features a band of marauders/deserters from the 108th ID (all of whom are racial minorities) who deserted because the command of New America is falling under the ideological influence of New America.

The scenario was significant because it mixed it up to make the standard villains red herrings.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Abbott Shaull]

Funny thing about mention the Postman. The novel wasn't published until after Twilight 2000 was v1 was published.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Funny thing about mention the Postman. The novel wasn't published until after Twilight 2000 was v1 was published.

The Postman is about the only movie I liked better than the book. The novel was very science fiction oriented, what with artificial intelligence and genetically engineered super troopers. The movie humanized General Bethlehem. I thought the movie made more sense, although I have to ignore the ending and some of the more silly sentimental moments in the middle.

Webstral

[Raellus]

Any time that there is a vacuum in the power structure, something or someone will eventually fill it. With the near collapse of the American federal government after the TDM, there would dozens of power vacuums from coast to coast. Whether a single entity like the New America of T2K canon would fill all of them is the question. I'm still not sure where I come down on this one. But I'm considering starting a CONUS-based campaign and that started me thinking seriously about this topic for the first time.

I've always liked the clear cut black and white of the Cold War rivals- it made perfect sense to me as a naïve pre-teen/teenager back in the mid-to-late '80s. Since then, I've come to see the world in all of its many shades of grey. Having a domestic enemy that is the same nationality as myself presents an interesting dilemma that I'd like to explore more. Naturally, New America was an immediate candidate to fill that domestic bad guy role. I've been thinking a lot lately about what New America would look like and this old thread provides a lot of good food for thought.

I recently watched a one-hour show on the National Geographic channel that briefly profiled three widespread American militia groups, all operating under the "Watchmen" moniker. One was in Florida, one in Ohio, and the last in Arizona. If they were directly linked in any way other than name, the show didn't say. I was left with the impression, however, that they were largely unaffiliated organizations. On a bit of an aside, they did however display a comically common body type- at least half of the militiamen caught on camera were grossly overweight. Their respective leadership cadres were very careful to be PC in their respective interviews. None of them publicly espoused any anti-government views; they all cited disaster preparedness and self-sufficiency as they raison de etre'. In fact, they all claimed that they existed to supplement existing government agencies in the event of an apocalyptic event. Every militia member across all three groups, aside from one Hispanic-looking man in the Ohio militia, was white. The Arizona group seemed the angriest of the three. Border security was their primary concern- they claimed that they're main quarry were foreign terrorists but their was a distinctly broad xenophobia in their rhetoric. By and large, all three of the Watchmen groups came across as earnest, politically moderate (or at least not quite extreme right leaning), well equipped poseurs.

I don't see something like New America as being far fetched. There's historical precedence in the United States. Buoyed by the Hollywood blockbuster, Birth of a Nation, Ku Klux Membership surged during the 1920s, albeit with a broader scope to its antipathy than its original iteration (Eastern and Southern European immigrants- Jews, and Catholics- as opposed to newly freed African-Americans, although black people weren't off the hook either) . It didn't wane in popularity again until its leader was accused of major sex crimes. To get back to my main point here, as many posters have previously stated, extremists tend to flourish in times of severe socio-economic stress, and political instability. It's no accident that the Russian Revolution happened during WWI, or that Fascism arose in the decades immediately after. A general breakdown in society provides extremists fertile soil in which to plant their seeds of anger and resentment, which often grow into hate.

Given said cataclysm, I can easily see a particularly well funded, supplied, connected extremist bringing together a lot of disparate militia groups under a single unified national organization in the United Sates. How much control at the local level this central figure would have would likely not be that great. Once again, communication, command, and control would be severely hindered by the devastation of multiple nuclear strikes. As a result, you'd see a lot of regional variation in organization, activities, and possibly even doctrine. Some New America cells might be very neo-Nazi in their outlook and activities. Others might not. That said, I still think that there would be more commonalities than differences.

If there was a blueprint for some sort of national militia organization in place before WWIII, then various regional groups would have a similar foundation. If someone wrote a book less radical and more widely distributed than something like the infamous Turner Diaries, then the scores of local and regional groups that would rise to fill the vacuum left in the wake of the TDM would have a popular model for their activities and organization. If the author of that popular book were still alive after the TDM, perhaps he could bring several of those regional organizations together, creating the active core of a more or less national movement. There would still likely be regional variation within this banner organization, but there would be some guiding principles that would link these groups together. To spice it up even more, part of the gameworld setting could be the struggle of the central New America leadership to unify and control these various local chapters.

But here are the features I think that all New America chapters would have in common:

1. Anti-[federal] government: The feds failed to protect the country, the presidential succession was a mess, and now their are two rival claimants to the mantle. Plus, real anti-fed militias really took off during the Clinton years, IRL.
2. Anti-communist: It was the Soviets, after all, that nuked America and created all of the devastation and suffering in the first place.
3. Anti-immigrant: The Mexican military invasion of the U.S. has given ample ammunition for any preexisting xenophobia-based arguments that may have had some traction before WWIII.
4. Religion: This one I'm not as sure about, but after near nuclear Armageddon, there might well be some lingering millennialism in here as well. Plus, since communism is in many ways anti-religion, there's almost a rebellious religiosity that goes hand in hand with anti-communism.

Some regional chapters may be a little more motivated by 1, some by 2, or 3, etc., but the basic framework is the same. I'm sure that not all chapters would get along. Some might fight openly for power.

Crap! It's way past my bedtime and I fear that I'm starting to ramble (heck, I probably started rambling an hour ago!), so I'd better call it a night and revisit this in the morning.

In the meantime, your thoughts and ideas are of course welcome.