Twilight 2013

[leonpoi]

Originally Posted by Gabe The Gun

Had our first session of 2013 and all I gotta' say is I love this system, the game is great! I don't see ANY reason sombody wouldn't like it. Its got my vote for sure!!!!!!!!!!

How's the initiative system? Does it play out too slow?

I was put off because of the amount of modifiers: your stance, enemy stance, movements, range, weapon type, etc, etc. I liked the idea of all of these things being included but it just seemed too much. What's your view?

[Mahatatain]

Gebe - I'd be interested to know if you've encountered the same problem with the damage system in T2013 that I've observed. Doing a little bit of maths it's possible to get a situation where you keep shooting someone and he doesn't get "wounded" any further, i.e. his wound state doesn't get any worse, particularly with Veteran or Elite NPCs.

I started a discussion about it on the official forums (http://www.93gamesstudio.com/forum/v...hp?f=32&t=2428) and seemed to get inconclusive answers from the game designers where they kept stressing the other effects of combat, which, while important wasn't really addressing the issue I've observed.

I'm therefore interested whether you've had a situation like this occur as it may be that I'm worrying about nothing!

[Gabe The Gun]

I have not yet came across that problem for we do not hit a combat until this Sat, but I will let you know.

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by Gabe The Gun

I have not yet came across that problem for we do not hit a combat until this Sat, but I will let you know.

I hope I'm wrong but try shooting a Veteran or Elite NPC with a pistol a lot. They'll get to a point where they're dying but won't die until they expire of their wounds after a couple of rounds of bleeding. It's quite hard to kill a Veteran or Elite NPC outright unless you're using some heavy firepower!

Anyway, if you encounter the issue (and it turns out that I'm right that it is an issue in the first place) then the link I posted had some suggestions on house rules to get round the issue.

[Gabe The Gun]

Well first of all, I really appreciate everyones concerns, but, in my opinion, if you didnt shoot somebody in the head and cause major head trauma to cause instant death, you can shoot all you want in real life with a handgun and have to wait for the bleed out for someone to die. Thats just how the human body works,its called "shock". So........on the other hand, if your going up against these type of NPC's in the game ill-equiped that is YOUR bad, not the systems. The reality aspects are there for me!

So here is a little bit of advice.........next time pack more heat instead whinning about getting your a## whipped by an NPC dude! Next time try a called shot to the head. Also I am using a .454 Casull

[Gabe The Gun]

Also, that seems more harsh than meant to be so please dont take offense, im not trying to bash anyone, just trying to get my point across gentlemen.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Gabe The Gun

Also I am using a .454 Casull

Your character is using a .454 Casull handgun? Doesn't that strike you as a little... munchkin-esque? I have no idea what the tone of your game is so maybe thats normal in your group. Seems highly unlikely in your standard post-apoc Twilight setting though.

[Gabe The Gun]

Originally Posted by Targan

Your character is using a .454 Casull handgun? Doesn't that strike you as a little... munchkin-esque? I have no idea what the tone of your game is so maybe thats normal in your group. Seems highly unlikely in your standard post-apoc Twilight setting though.

No brother, that is just my sidearm . Since everyone is talking about handgun problems. It would be my last resort for sure. I am using a FN MAG as my primary, an M320 w/HEDP rounds as my secondary. I am not falling short as far as KILLING POWER!

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by Gabe The Gun

Also, that seems more harsh than meant to be so please dont take offense, im not trying to bash anyone, just trying to get my point across gentlemen.

None taken! <G>

Originally Posted by Gabe The Gun

Well first of all, I really appreciate everyones concerns, but, in my opinion, if you didnt shoot somebody in the head and cause major head trauma to cause instant death, you can shoot all you want in real life with a handgun and have to wait for the bleed out for someone to die. Thats just how the human body works,its called "shock". So........on the other hand, if your going up against these type of NPC's in the game ill-equiped that is YOUR bad, not the systems. The reality aspects are there for me!

The thing is (from memory) that stock NPCs (including Veterans and Elites) have one damage track that is equivalent to the chest hit location for a PC. A more experienced NPC just has more points and so you can get a situation where you're putting additional bullets into an NPC for no additional impact in game terms.

Leonpoi's second comment below appears to address the same issue but for PCs or Star NPCs who have different wound tracks for different locations. The issue is the "Recurring Injuries rule" on page 152 of the main rulebook by the way.

Originally Posted by leonpoi

I've played 2013 a bit and I think it needs 2 house rules but is otherwise fine:

1. MoS are split evenly between bullets in a burst attack. This replaces the default rules whereby every bullet gets the same overall MoS. This tones burst down a tad. Any bullets that can't be allocated a MoS are grazing shots.

2. when wounded body parts are hit again but the wound is ignored because it is lower than the current wound level make a shock roll based on the current wound level. This removes the problem of firing rounds in wounded body parts for no outcome.

Let me know how the combat goes for you, plus if you're using stage 3 combat initiative timing let me know if you went insane

With regards to other firearms besides those in the main rulebook there are several weapons guide pdfs that you can buy quite cheaply that have a load of extra weapons in them as well as a load of officially detailed (as in by the game designers) weapons on the official forums. Well worth checking out.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Gabe The Gun

Well first of all, I really appreciate everyones concerns, but, in my opinion, if you didnt shoot somebody in the head and cause major head trauma to cause instant death, you can shoot all you want in real life with a handgun and have to wait for the bleed out for someone to die.

First off, let me thank you for introducing me to a cartridge that I'd never heard of before.

Now, to address your main point- You don't have to shoot someone in the head with a pistol to kill them instantly. If a pistol bullet hits the aorta or the heart, death is nearly instant. If both lungs collapse, death will follow pretty soon after. If the TW2013 rules don't address these very plausible possibilities, then they need a bit of a rewrite (i.e. erratta).

That said, I'd really like to take a good close look at the 2013 rules. I've heard lots of good things about them. I'm just not sure if I want to pay full price for a system I may not end up using.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Originally Posted by Raellus

First off, let me thank you for introducing me to a cartridge that I'd never heard of before.

Now, to address your main point- You don't have to shoot someone in the head with a pistol to kill them instantly. If a pistol bullet hits the aorta or the heart, death is nearly instant. If both lungs collapse, death will follow pretty soon after. If the TW2013 rules don't address these very plausible possibilities, then they need a bit of a rewrite (i.e. erratta).

That said, I'd really like to take a good close look at the 2013 rules. I've heard lots of good things about them. I'm just not sure if I want to pay full price for a system I may not end up using.

Don't forget shock, its a real killer.
Also of note the .454 will also fire 45 long colt rounds. Actully a better Big Revolver would be the S&W .460 magnum, it will fire .460 magnum, .454 casul, and .45 long colt ammo. That being said, they are revolvers and even it one starts with a limited supply of ammo, they could easily be reloaded, as is in the later parts of the war allot of ammo. You could possible in a pinch, load .45 bullets in them, though those are light bullets. It would not be hard to have a bullet mold made to cast your own bullets for the pistol, you would use rifle primers anyway and powder well you could even use black powder, but that might degrade performance a bit. Revolvers are also easier to keep tract of ones brass, when you unload you just stick the empty brass in a pouch. A semi-auto or automatic throws the brass all over the place and one does not always have time to pick up your brass in some area of hostile occupation.

I would never waist the weight carry capacity for such a big honking piece of metal myself, I would rather carry extra ammo for my main weapon (usually my only weapon).

[Gabe The Gun]

Originally Posted by leonpoi

How's the initiative system? Does it play out too slow?

I was put off because of the amount of modifiers: your stance, enemy stance, movements, range, weapon type, etc, etc. I liked the idea of all of these things being included but it just seemed too much. What's your view?

We have had combat and now I can answer your question. I would not say the initiative system is too slow. While it may not be the fastest of other systems I think it plays out fine. We had fun and the game rolled on quite smoothly. I give it a thumbs up! I definitely like the details of combat with 2013.

[leonpoi]

Originally Posted by Gabe The Gun

We have had combat and now I can answer your question. I would not say the initiative system is too slow. While it may not be the fastest of other systems I think it plays out fine. We had fun and the game rolled on quite smoothly. I give it a thumbs up! I definitely like the details of combat with 2013.

Interesting to hear. I might break it out and have another look at it. I agree with you that the details are quite good - especially the gun range and visual range modifiers being split.

[Gabe The Gun]

Originally Posted by leonpoi

Interesting to hear. I might break it out and have another look at it. I agree with you that the details are quite good - especially the gun range and visual range modifiers being split.

Yeah man, I would definitely dig it up and give it a try. I really must press the issue on you about TRYING it, the way I see it you really got to get some people together a actually PLAY the game before you can opinionize it brother. I only say this because alot of people I know could have passed on the system as well for it seemed too complicated and involved to run smoothly, but when they actually got some gametime in with it ,they saw as well as I did at how smoothly the system really does run. And it rocks! The detail in the game and combat are sweet, the details in combat really play out a story so you can imagine exactly whats happening. Its something else man! 93 Games Studio really knocked this game out of the park, and hopefully when you get some gametime in you'll see exactly what I mean my friend.