Weapons Timelines for the Twilight War

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

No L85A2 upgrade for HK probably means no G36 in the mix. If the G11 program fizzles, Germany may have gone for the HK33 and 53 for a NATO standard caliber -- either way, West German reservists are probably still carrying G3s, while the Osties will be going into action with their MPiK-74s for the active duty guys and probably AKMs for their reserves. (German logistics during the war must have been giving staff officers strokes even before the nukes.)

The Czechoslovaks most likely field the LADA or some other sort of 5.45mm rifle to keep commonality with the mainstream Warsaw Pact (personally I'd like to see a 5.45mm version of the vz.58, but that doesn't look like the way they were going).

Thanks. I hadn't come across references to he MPiK-74 or the LADA before. Nice. With Romania, Poland, and Bulgaria switching to AK-74 clones, and with around five to seven years of full scale production of these weapons (prior to the TDM in late '97), 5.45mm ammo would be more common, and 7.62mm S less so, on the front lines in Europe.

Based on what I've read, I think Germany would more likely ramp up production of the 5.56mm G41 instead of the G33. There's not much of a difference, as far as I can tell.

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Thanks. I hadn't come across references to he MPiK-74 or the LADA before. Nice. With Romania, Poland, and Bulgaria switching to AK-74 clones, and with around five to seven years of full scale production of these weapons (prior to the TDM in late '97), 5.45mm ammo would be more common, and 7.62mm S less so, on the front lines in Europe.

The East Germans did a pretty nice AK, if the 74s I got to do fam fire and training with are any indication. (The Bulgarian 5.45 ammo was less nice -- after several mags of one lot a bunch of us started feeling like exposed skin was burning -- I've probably got cancer care of Eastern European quality control or something . . .)



I've never seen a LADA outside of pictures, but the SGM at my last unit went through the SGM Academy with a bunch of senior NCOs from former Warsaw Pact nations and the word of mouth among them seemed to be the it set a new standard for AK type weapons. Judging from the pictures, it does seem to fix some of the ergonomics on the AK.

I agree that 5.45x39 would be the primary round used by most of the Warsaw Pact forces when the war in Europe kicks off. By the time the Cat C reserves get mobilized, vintage AKs might be as common. I don't think the AKMR idea GDW had would really pan out -- AKM to AK-74 conversion would require surgery to the receiver, a new barrel, new gas tube, new bolt, etc. By the time you've done all that, it can't be much cheaper than just building a new AK-74.

Based on what I've read, I think Germany would more likely ramp up production of the 5.56mm G41 instead of the G33. There's not much of a difference, as far as I can tell.

I was thinking the G41 was just the German military G# for the HK33, but Wikipedia has corrected my errors. I'd agree that the G41 would be the go to gun, though the idea of the Germans fielding a weapon using a STANAG 5.56mm magazine seems so exotic and weird it will take me a couple days to wrap my head around it .

[waiting4something]

I can't see the Germans or West Germans depending on whatever version of the story you go by, having many G11's if any issued at all. Germany is the front lines along with Poland, so their factories and labs would have got mauled by Warsaw Pact forces right off the bat. With no German Air Force the sky's would have been wide open for Warsaw Pact bombers.
The G11 was teseted more then a lot of other experimental weapons, but it had begun back in the 1970's and still was only being looked at. When the wall came down, they said their was no need for such a weapon and the project was just thrown out like that. Not much later the Germans went ahead and bought new G36's though. I believe they where never that sold on the G11 or really all the serious about bringing it into production. It was just a showboat piece. I have never seen one outside of pictures or a museum and it was made in my lifetime and was supposed to be a standard rifle for a whole army. I guessing no one else has ever seen one either.
Lots of guns are put out there as being the gun that is gonna replace this and that but it never happens. If they are super exotic that seems to be a good give away it won't happen.

[waiting4something]

Another gun that I can't see being in the twilight war was the ever so popular HK CAW. Germany has never been big on shotguns period. So they are gonna jump from having no shotgun standard to this super shotgun that can fire special flechette rounds effectively out to like 150-200 meters. Shotgun magazines are bulky as hell, because the ammo it holds is also. This limits the amount of ammo you can haul around. So the thought of a soldier with maybe 6-7 10 round magazines rapidly blasting away with it seems not very likely outside law enforcement or elite units. This was another gun that was tested, but do to the ending of the cold war the (CAW) program just went away. If it was that great the U.S. military, who is a big user on shotguns would have gone ahead and grabbed this baby up. It was just another show boat piece just like the OICW. All hype with no intention of really taking off.
If I played the game, the only way I would let a PC or NPC have such weapons would be if they where a person directly involved with it like a civilian lab tech/engineer or a military dude that gets to play with/test futureless weapons.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The HK CAWS wasn't designed for the West Germans and they never intended adopting it. It was designed for the US Army under the Close Assault Weapon System program of the 1980s.
As for the G11, it most definitely was wanted by the West Germans. It was seen as a system needed to counter the Warsaw Pact's numerical superiority in manpower and was the result of studies conducted to find a system that offered a higher probability of first round hit than the then current generation of weapons. As mentioned previously, the G11 was to go to first line units while the G41 was to go to second line units.
There are two significant reasons for why it was stopped. The first being the reunification of the two Germanys (and subsequent end of the Cold War) and the fact that some of the people in other nations were survivors of World War 2 and were seen by the Germans as being potentially worried about Germany being whole again and then developing Wunderwaffe

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

The HK CAWS wasn't designed for the West Germans and they never intended adopting it. It was designed for the US Army under the Close Assault Weapon System program of the 1980s.
As for the G11, it most definitely was wanted by the West Germans. It was seen as a system needed to counter the Warsaw Pact's numerical superiority in manpower and was the result of studies conducted to find a system that offered a higher probability of first round hit than the then current generation of weapons. As mentioned previously, the G11 was to go to first line units while the G41 was to go to second line units.
There are two significant reasons for why it was stopped. The first being the reunification of the two Germanys (and subsequent end of the Cold War) and the fact that some of the people in other nations were survivors of World War 2 and were seen by the Germans as being potentially worried about Germany being whole again and then developing Wunderwaffe

Yes, the CAW was being looked at for the U.S.A., in the game it was used by the Germans too. That's why I mentioned the German factor. I'm still not convinced however the Germans where that serious about the G11. They had a long time to get that thing going and they buried it and went with a G36 later. The U.S.A. was dicking around with the G11 a little too, but never shined to it. We also where looking at a gun made by Colt that was similar to the M16 but fired duplex rounds. The thing is if they really wanted it bugs and all, the Germans would have atleast had a few in there miltary like the the Russians have the AN-94. Hey, whatever happen to the AN-94 anyway? It was supposed to replace the AK series, but from best I know very few ever filtered in.
I think your right the Germans on paper ideally planned for what you said, but however behind close doors they had other plans. This is just theory by me of course so take it with a grain a salt.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

It wasn't so much a case of the Germans burying the G11 and then going for the G36 later, the G36 was a direct result of the Germans not taking the G11 & G41 into service and being stuck with a 7.62mmN rifle when everyone else was going to 5.56mm.
The development of the rifle was delayed not so much because the rifle presented problems but the ammunition did. HK didn't develop the ammo, Dynamit Nobel did and the caseless design went through many iterations before they came up with a round that would not cook off, they settled on a watered down rocket propellant from what I recall.
This page from HKPro has more info
http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?optio...types&Itemid=5
While HKPro has a lot of information, they fail to mention that Mauser was also developing their own entry for the G11 rifle and caseless rounds. I think they pulled out early on because they couldn't sort out ammunition problems. Rheinmetall were also developing a non-traditional ammunition in the 9/4mm Kaltmann which saw the plastic case get ejected out of the barrel while the primer and base were consumed during the normal combustion process

Some sources claim 1000 rifles were produced but more conservative estimates place the number at just 100
It should be remembered that HK were financially screwed by the cancellation of the G11/G41 deal, leading the way for Royal Ordnance of the UK to buy the company. HK's survival depended on the G11, I can't imagine that they would put themselves into such a situation if the plans were to never adopt the G11 in the first place. Apparently in an effort to make some money HK tried selling the G41 but it was considered too expensive by most potential buyers. Getting the contract to update the L85A1 to the A2 model basically saved their arse from being broken up and sold off.

As for the AN94, the Russians did get some but budget problems caused a major cutback in purchasing. Instead of all the AK74s being replaced, the AN94 was taken into service only by certain elite units