Akmr

[Legbreaker]

Being a game, one of the more "annoying" issues is the limited ability to accurately reflect the effects of the various calibres, etc. Basically we're stuck with 1, 2, 3, or 4 D6 for most of the more common weapons with no provision for handloads, varying projectile weights, etc.

Of course it is a game so suspension of disbelief is a given.

Any variation in weapon firing, etc that's not already covered by the basics (recoil, rate of fire, base damage, etc) is fairly easily covered by a little roleplaying. If a weapon is described as having a large muzzle flash (AK-74U as an example) then there's certainly nothing wrong in playing it that way.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Being a game, one of the more "annoying" issues is the limited ability to accurately reflect the effects of the various calibres, etc. Basically we're stuck with 1, 2, 3, or 4 D6 for most of the more common weapons with no provision for handloads, varying projectile weights, etc.

Of course it is a game so suspension of disbelief is a given.

Any variation in weapon firing, etc that's not already covered by the basics (recoil, rate of fire, base damage, etc) is fairly easily covered by a little roleplaying. If a weapon is described as having a large muzzle flash (AK-74U as an example) then there's certainly nothing wrong in playing it that way.

This is where the GM should be winging it.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

This is where the GM should be winging it.

sure.

Why not just add a little sumpin`like say a + dice damage for special loads,increase range and penetration for those kinds of loads or reduce recoil and other stats for those loads.

As long as you go about it systematically its all good imho.

My players ( greedy,spoilt rotten and megalomaniac as they are ) always ask for mercury core vanadium steel tipped shotgun slugs,match grade long range rifle bullets etc etc .As long as they can get it I just give some extra stats to go with their wep stat sheet .


note to self :
Also - increase number / skill level of enemies

Someone want a rule section for this - I agree that thats a great idea .Until then I fly by the seat of my pants from wehat I know and what can be read online .

[Raellus]

The RL AK-103 has convinced me to drop the AKMR from my T2KU. If, IRL, the Russians decided to design and manufacture an improved version of the 7.62mm S AKMR in the mid '90s for domestic use and export, it stands to reason that the Soviet Union would opt to do the same thing, replacing old AKMs and even older AK-47s instead of going to the trouble of collecting and rechambering them. It would likely also start exporting them to other WTO nations that used the AKM and/or allowing liscenced production of the AK-103.

The AKMR is not a terrible idea, but I prefer the AK-103.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Perhaps the AKMR should be viewed as one of those oddities of the war, a depot level conversion of older weapons to maintain ammunition commonality with certain frontline units. However it is not an authorised model, just something that has come about because a particular unit has sufficient stocks of 5.45mm ammo but not enough AK74 types to go around.

So it should be viewed as one of those 'in theatre' conversions like the various armoured conversions of softskin vehicles seen in various wars rather than some rifle issued with widespread distribution in lieu of the standard AK74 types.

[HorseSoldier]

The AKMR doesn't make sense pre-war, as there's just too much replacement or major alteration required. Post-nuke, though I can buy the idea of guns being cobbled together from leftover parts at Soviet or other WP state armories. Pretty low frequncy sort of weapon, I'd think captured Chinese guns would be more common, even in the European theater.

[Tegyrius]

With the current price of surplus 7N6 on the American domestic market, I'll see occasional gun board threads on the feasibility of producing a 5.45x39mm bolt-action rifle (there is the SSG 82, but it's as rare as the proverbial hen's teeth and uses a proprietary optics mount). The best idea I've seen from gunsmiths who're consulted seems to be that the ideal starting platform would be a CZ 527 in 7.62x39mm, but the combination of re-barreling and reworking the bolt face would at least double the price of the rifle. Now, that's an off-the-cuff figure for limited-run custom work, but I have no reason to doubt these guys, particularly the AK smiths who already work with both calibers on a daily basis. Point is, it would not be just a barrel swap.

More data.

- C.

[Tegyrius]

Also, I can confirm that AK-47-type magazines will not seat properly in an AK-74-type receiver, nor vice versa. Steel '47 mags are too wide. Bakelite '74 mags are too long. So getting 5.45x39mm magazines into a receiver that started life as 7.62x39mm is going to require grinding on the mag "well" and rework of the magazine catch, and even after that you're going to see some lateral wobble that will make feeding rather unreliable.

YMMV.

- C.

[HorseSoldier]

Yeah, surgery to the receiver to make the mag well work is one of the issues, and then I'm not sure if just extending the mag well would be the end of the story or require further internal mods to then compensate for that change (though they might be addressed as part of the barrel swap anyway).

[Raellus]

I think that the game designers way back in '84 were not aware that the AK-74 was in production (or soon would be) anywhere else besides the Soviet Union. Liscence-built AKMs, however, were being produced throughout the Warsaw Pact and so must have seemed like they would be more numerous than the AK-74 for many years to come (at least until WWIII started in '95-'96).

I can't blame them for this assumption. I didn't know until very recently that AK-74 copies were being manufactured anywhere other than Poland (the Wz.88 Tantal). My Osprey Warsaw Pact Ground Forces (copyright 1987) makes no mention of 5.45mm AKs being used by any of the WP armies and all of the photos and color plates show troops carrying AKM clones (with the exception of the Czechs who carried their own look-alike 7.62mm S assault rifle).

It turns out that, in addition to the USSR and Poland, Romania, East Germany, Bulgaria, and Czechoslovakia (at the very least) were all manufacturing AK-74 clones by the late 1980s (RL). By '95, most, if not all, first-line WP units would have been equipped with 5.45mm AKs and production of 5.45mm ammo and additional rifles would have been in full swing. AKMs would have been mothballed and/or sold off to pro-Soviet client states around the globe. You would still be seeing them in WP use c. 2000, but they would be much less common than the AK-74 and its variants.

So, taking updated RW history into account, as well as the difficulties of reworking AK-47s and AKMs to fire the 5.45mm round AND the fact that the Russians have since gone the route of manufacturing new 7.62mm AKs (i.e. the AK103 series) instead of rechambering old AKs, it seems like the AKMR would never have been born. It was an imaginative attempt to give the WP some uniformity of ammunition and I commend the designers for their inventiveness. However, in light of these recent findings, I can't in good conscience keep the AKMR in my T2KU.

[Tegyrius]

To be clear, I'm really not trying to fault Team GDW for making an extrapolation based on best available research and current trends. I'm not that much of a hypocrite...

- C.

[HorseSoldier]

Agreement -- without having weapons and ammo to handle and look at and just knowing that both rounds were "x39" dimensionally the idea of the AKMR makes good sense, and wouldn't be out of step with a lot of stuff the Soviets really did to keep obsolete equipment updated and relevant as time went on. There are still lots of people out (judging by AK and SKS related posts on gun boards) who don't know 5.45x39 is more than just a necked down M43 7.62x39 round. (Not to mention the ones who want to rechamber replica StG-44s in 7.62x39, but that's a bit off topic.)

[waiting4something]

The AKMR is a terrible idea. Why would you go dicking around with calibers when the 7.62 and 5.45 are both plentiful? It would require more production of parts and time when it could be spent on better things. It's like rechambering a M14 for 5.56 because the M16 in more common now. I have always hated the AKMR idea and never given it a realistic look.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

It's like rechambering a M14 for 5.56 because the M16 in more common now.

Hey, look, you just invented the Mini-14!

- C.

[waiting4something]

They are simular, but the Mini-14 is still a bit different. Mainly the Mini-14 is a cheaper built gun. It's accuracy is not on par with the M14, but yes I know what your saying man. I almost used the Mini-14 as a example, but felt the M16 was a better choice since that is what the Military uses.

[Spoe]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

The best idea I've seen from gunsmiths who're consulted seems to be that the ideal starting platform would be a CZ 527 in 7.62x39mm, but the combination of re-barreling and reworking the bolt face would at least double the price of the rifle.

I'm not sure how feasible it would be to rework the bolt face. The rim diameter of 5.45x39 is roughly 1mm smaller than 7.62x32mm; you'd have to add material.

With the quality of 5.45 out there, I don't know that I'd want to sink that kind of money into the project. Not saying it's bad, but it isn't match ammo.

As for the AKMR, I'm not sure (knowing what we do now) that it would make sense. In most ways, the AK-74 is an AKM modified for 5.45x39mm and so the differences between them are pretty much the list of changes you'd need to make. The main exceptions are the front sight block on the AK-74 and the flash hider/brake vs. compensator, neither of are technically required for the caliber change.

[pmulcahy11b]

Going back to my post at the beginning of this thread, I agree that the idea of the AKMR is a silly concept. It's just an interesting flavoring element.

[swaghauler]

The AKMR would require a new Barrel, Bolt, Bolt Carrier, Gas Piston Assembly (timed to 5.45's "barrel dwell time"), Magazines, Rear Sight and Sight Mount (calibrated to the new round), Springs, and Trunion Mount (to recenter the barrel to the 5.45 bolt's face) to convert it to 5.45mm X 39mm. This would comprise 80% of the cost of a new rifle. The Soviets are too practical for this. They would simply sell TWO used AKMs and build ONE new AK-74 with the money from the sale.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Ya know... way back when I was still in service, one of my Section asked me to identify a strange M16 they had seen in the hands of a another Infantry unit. As it was, the Digger with the strange M16 happened to walk past a little while later so my mate pointed it out to me.

It looked like a mix between an M16A1 and an M16A2... because that's pretty much what it was. It was an M16A1 fitted with the buttstock and forestock of the M16A2.
The Australian military got it's M16s way back in the 1970s, naturally enough they were A1 models. However by the 1990s, some spare parts for the A1s were as rare as rocking horse shit in Australia and so the Army sourced certain M16A2 parts that would fit, i.e. the furniture.

So my point for this rambling reminiscence is perhaps the AKMR could be viewed as actually an AK74 that has been repaired at the depot level with certain parts from the AKM, e.g. stocks, pistol grips and so on, not the internal parts or sights etc. etc. but it's enough to make the rifle look "odd" compared to an AKM or an AK74. Odd enough for Western troops to give it a name to designate it as something other than an AKM or AK74 because they didn't know when they first encountered it, that it was just a repaired AK74.

[Raellus]

The HK32 (a G3 chambered for the 7.62x39mm round and designed to accept AKM magazines) seems to support the AKMR concept, but due to the reasons I previous cited in post #40, I still think it's highly unlikely that the Soviets would have invested in such a weapon.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...n-in-the-wild/

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Interesting for a later timeline, the Mexicans seem to have begun licence production of the HK32 some years back.
I've found a lack of hard info about numbers, dates of production, intro into service etc. etc. so nearest I can tell, the Mexican HK32 was in the hands of police and army around the mid-late 2000s.

I'm kind of wondering if it was a fallback option in case the FX-05 Xiuhcoatl rifle didn't work out or if it was decided to produce it because AKM ammo confiscated from drug cartel forces could be used?

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by jester

I say yes, it is found, since 90% of the parts are interchangeable, all it really takes is a barrel swap if I recall right.

Now, in my T2K playing, I just keep stocks of both weapons available. A unit either has AKMs or the AK-74, with more regular and modern units having the 74 as its universal weapon, although some units do preffer to keep or return to the 47.

I view the AKMR on par with the M16EZ's mentioned. It was made from spare parts or weapons that were sent back to the armory for repair and refitting. Basicaly used weapons that may be worn out and given a new barrel. These often are found in the hands of partisans and other irregular forces, although I tend to give irregular forces usualy loyal to the Russians with older weapons like the SKS and Mosin/Nagant or the M-44 carbine and the assorted PP series submachineguns.

Once I even threw a T-55 at my players.

But say a unit that was formed after the bombs fell when Ivjesk <spelling> was nuked and the Russians industrial capacity was damaged I could see them being issued with AKMR's from arsenal rebuilt weapons mainly due to a lack of resources. It does seem logical since eastern bloc ammo tends to be more corosive when barrels become worn, why not give them a new barrel and convert it to the new round. Anyhow that is the logic in my campaign, as well as who would get them.

Yes, and I had older m16's receiving newer 1-9 and 1-7 barrels to accept NATO ammo.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

Actually, the bullet in the M1943 7.62mmx39.00mm weighs 7.9g, and the bullet in the Mosin-Nagant 7.62mmx54.00mm(R) weighs 11.9g. They're considerably different.

Modifying Enfields and Mosin-Nagants would be easier, both are a .303 rimmed round. The M43 is a 123 gr .308 round.