A Bad Thought [Thunder Empire]

[Raellus]

This could create some very intriguing scenarios and adventure seeds in the Phoenix area. This summer, I read a book about an undercover AFT agent who infiltrated the AZ Hells Angels (No Angel, by Jay Dobins) and it strikes me that SAMAD would probably want to infiltrate the Phoenix warlord's organization in a like fashion, both to gain intel and to undermine and disrupt his operations. This could fun to play out.

The PCs would have the unenviable dilema of if/when/and how to intervene knowing that attempting to do so could blow their cover and get them killed. On the other hand, what do they do when the warlord's thugs plan to massacre a settlement or enslave another (that sort of thing)- Let it happen and lose their souls? Try something subtle and hope for the best? Intervene and blow their cover and any chance of a bigger intel haul?

[kalos72]

When it comes to marauders, I think the ends justify the means regardless.

I would think they would try to set a 2nd up first though...to fill the power vacuum.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Raellus

This could create some very intriguing scenarios and adventure seeds in the Phoenix area. This summer, I read a book about an undercover AFT agent who infiltrated the AZ Hells Angels (No Angel, by Jay Dobins) and it strikes me that SAMAD would probably want to infiltrate the Phoenix warlord's organization in a like fashion, both to gain intel and to undermine and disrupt his operations.

I've read that book! That undercover cop must have had some seriously big gonads to do what he did.

Originally Posted by Webstral

If Phoenix, or a large part thereof, has been united under the banner of a single warlord, then a decapitation stroke can bring the whole establishment into Huachuca’s hands at some future date.

(Emphasis inserted by me). I think the when of it would be important, at least as important as the mindset and morality of the commander making the decision. Getting the timing wrong could result in there being no "establishment" to bring into Fort Huachuca's hands, or conversely could result in the Phoenix situation being way too much to handle if the warlords managed to get their sh*t together at the same time as Fort Huachuca suffered setbacks in their recovery plans.

Who knows, in late 2001 or beyond Fort Huachuca might get materiel or manpower assistance from MilGov again? Unlikely in the short term I know as MilGov has a lot on its plate and Arizona is very isolated but MilGov might come to the conclusion that assisting and sweet talking SAMAD is a good investment. If MilGov completely ignores SAMAD it will have no say in how things turn out in AZ. Assisting SAMAD would at least open some doors in the future. And if SAMAD received a few thousand reasonably well equipped European Theatre vets in 2002 gaining control of useful parts of metropolitan Phoenix could be a whole lot easier.

Love your work on SAMAD Web. My problem is that my knowledge of AZ is sketchy at best. I'm off to re-read your works in the archive again in case what I've posted today has already been covered and made redundant.

[Raellus]

I live in southern Arizona, just north of Tucson. I drive through Twin Peaks pass (described as a battle site in one of Web's stories) 5 days a week.

I would think SAMAD would need to control the 1-10 as far north as the 1-8 junction near Casa Grande. That would keep its lines of communication with S. California open (keeping it clear of Mexican army units, marauder gangs, and bandidos is another issue). That would, in my mind, give SAMAD a reason to actively oppose any large marauder groups in Phoenix, assuming said groups also had designs on controlling the junction area. I can see such groups running "tolls" and such.

On a related note, with a presence in Tucson, the I-10 east to New Mexico (or El Paso on highway signs- poor New Mexico gets no love) should be within SAMAD's zone of control.

[Webstral]

Targan, thank you kindly for the vote of confidence.

Raellus, I'm of like mind about the importance of controlling Casa Grande. I haven't figured out what kind of presence to put there, though. I'm leaning towards putting a battalion task force there once the manpower for this sort of thing exists. It might be 1999 before there's much more than a company strong point there, given the need to keep the border between Nogales and Naco fortified at the main crossing points and patrolled throughout the area between.

A powerful presence at Casa Grande acts as an obstacle for any major Mexican Army thrust up I-8 from Yuma and can serve to deter the more aggressive or adventuresome gangs from Phoenix. I'm picturing the same sort of arrangement as Nogales and Bisbee: a complex of rammed earth bunkers, covered communications trenches, covered firing positions for the mortars and (later) the homemade MRL. The lot would be supported by rammed earth/concrete workshops with substantial earth covering. Labor would come from EPW, Mexican refugees, and criminals serving their sentences. Battalions would rotate through the Casa Grande position on a regular basis.

Casa Grande, by the way, would make an excellent base for LRS operating in the Phoenix area. If necessary, a motorized rescue mission could be sent out from Casa Grande and be in southern Phoenix in 90 minutes or so. Motorized insertion into patrol areas would be possible, though obviously this is a risky maneuver.

I agree that a similar strong point would be desirable along I-10 approaching the New Mexico border, although a battalion might not be necessary. The Mexican Army is a lot weaker in that direction. It seems that Tercio Ejercito pretty much gets put on the back burner after the Summer 1998 campaign season.

All of this underscores the main reason why Fort Huachuca does comparatively little to bring much Arizona under control until 2001. Given the need to keep a battalion at Nogales, another one at Bisbee, one at Casa Grande, a small force at or near Douglas, forces patrolling the interior, forces patrolling the border, forces in Tucson, and a reserve at Fort Huachuca itself, there just aren't the rifles to do much elsewhere until 3rd Brigade is trained up and ready to take over some of the jobs being done by 111th Brigade.

Webstral

[Rainbow Six]

Web, let me preface my comments by stating that I also thoroughly enjoy your work on SAMAD. I admire your skill in painting a picture with words. Also like Targan, I know next to nothing about the State of Arizona, so comments here can be taken in a general sense.

I would agree that the SAMAD leadership would face a huge moral and ethical dilemma in choosing whether or not to trade with any of the Phoenix Warlords. I'd imagine there are sound rational and logical reasons for both sides of the argument (if anything there are probably more reasons in favour of establishing a non aggresive relationship with the Phoenix gangs than against - presumably SAMAD has much to lose and little to gain by becoming involved in a fight it lacks the resources to adequately prosecute?).

Morally and ethically, I think it's a whole different ballgame. However, how much of an influence would morals and / or ethics have four years in to the Twilight War? After all, morals and ethics do not put food on the table (or provide a source of manufactured goods, raw materials, etc, etc).

Also, whilst trade with marauders may be a neccessary evil short term, I wonder what consideration Huachuca's leadership would give to the long term in reaching a final decision? If SAMAD trading with a Warlord (or Warlords) does serve to make that Warlord stronger, is SAMAD actually helping him (or her) to reach a position where they are able to pose a serious threat to Huachuca's long term survival as Targan mentioned in his post? Web, do you envisage a situation where any of the Warlords, either individually or acting together, would ever be strong enough to seriously challenge SAMAD? If not then this may be a moot point.

With regard to the subject of a decapitation stroke, if I'm understanding you correctly this would be aimed at said Warlord (and perhaps his / her inner circle), I think I would subscribe to the theory that the end justified the means (although I think a lot of careful thought would need to go into any operation beforehand to ensure "the end" was as carefully defined as possible, particularly with regard to who takes the leader's place - it would seem futile to go to the effort of mounting such an operation merely to replace one despot with another, potentially worse despot). Personally, I think the morally unpalatable part might revolve more around the subsequent consequences of SAMAD's actions and any "collateral damage"...for example, if, following the death of their leader, surviving gang members embark on a killing spree, slaughtering innocent Phoenix residents in revenge.

Raellus is spot on - this could create a multitude of scenarios and adventure seeds for anyone wishing to run a campaign in the area.

[Webstral]

Rainbow, thank you kindly for your favorable review of my work. I don’t picture the gangs of Phoenix ever being able to threaten SAMAD. However, the Huachuca leadership doesn’t know what I know. The prospect of a Valley of the Sun united under a single banner of black and red is one that makes the Huachucans distinctly unhappy, but by mid-1999 the command begins to get the idea that even a Valley of the Sun united under a Phoenician Baron Czarny would be unable to offer a major threat.

I certainly don’t mean to imply that the Phoenicians aren’t dangerous. The situation in greater Phoenix rather resembles a drier, warmer, more diffuse version of the situation on Manhattan in Armies of the Night. There are various small communities scattered throughout the Valley of the Sun, plus a few major warlord-style governments that fit the overall description of the Mayor’s and the Duke’s organizations. Then, of course, there are the armies of the night. A lot of fighters develop good urban combat skills very quickly. The cream rises to the top, so to speak. Even in early 2001 it would be very costly for 111th Brigade to attempt to pacify the Valley of the Sun with its own strength.

However, skill in metro Phoenix does not equate to skill on the open field. Urban combat is a distinctly different skill than combat in other arenas. This is especially true when the weapons being used by the combatants tend to be handguns, shotguns, melee weapons, improved thrown explosives, and improvised projectile weapons like crossbows. A built-up environment rewards some tactics and penalized others. Less well-developed environments, like the terrain separating Phoenix and Tucson, reward and penalize differently. In the city, the troops of 111th Brigade operate at a marginal advantage—especially at night and against an enemy who knows the lay of the land, so to speak. Outside the city, the immense advantage in firepower possessed by 111th Brigade vis-Ã*-vis any or all of the Phoenicians would bring a speedy conclusion to any encounter.

It is conceivable that some Phoenician combatants could use the hilly and mountainous terrain east and west of I-10 to get within a single night’s march of Casa Grande or bypass Casa Grande to raid Tucson. This would be a challenging undertaking for a force large enough to tackle Casa Grande, though. Moreover, a motorized response force would be dispatched from Tucson very quickly. The attackers would have to have very impressive numbers if they intended to accomplish anything. In any event, once the sun came up the weight of firepower from the 111th would decide the issue, in all likelihood.

Early on, some of the MI folks become concerned about just what a Phoenician Czarny could put together if he did unify the Valley of the Sun. The conclusion is that his ability to manufacture heavy weapons would be very limited or nonexistent for the foreseeable future. The factories of Phoenix are lying disused. A Phoenician Czarny would not have access to expertise to reopen them. The whole industrial infrastructure of Phoenix has been ruined, and putting it back together would be beyond a Phoenician Czarny without massive outside aid. Some cottage industry would be possible, but the overall picture would remain one of very tough and seasoned but under-equipped and poorly-supported troops with no appreciable capacity for power projection.

The timing and execution of a decapitation stroke are major issues. As of April 1, 2001 these issues have not been resolved. Fortunately, there is no single leader on the verge of uniting the Valley of the Sun.

Webstral

[Adm.Lee]

One could always try the Byzantine strategy of using warlords against one another. If you need stuff from Phoenix, are all of those things under just one warlords' control? What if you traded with Warlord A one week, and Warlord B the next month, and so on? It sounds needlessly complex, but it might avoid the dilemma of making Warlord A so powerful that he can dominate the region.

It could also backfire horribly, if Warlord C takes out both A and B, and refuses to deal with SAMAD at all. Especially if A and B wear themselves out fighting over resources to trade with SAMAD.