Need your help/advice on optics , supressors and so on!

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I challenge anyone with normal vision to see a tiny red dot at more than a few dozen metres....
Can't see how some of those ranges can possibly work.

There's also the factor of darkness vs. daylight. And looking at your dot through a scope. Hmmm...I need to give it more thought.

[Legbreaker]

Looking through a scope wouldn't be so bad as your field of vision is rather restricted (and hopefully the optics you're looking through have crosshairs to narrows it down further).
A red dot though is going to be near impossible to see in daylight and over open sights at more than a few dozen paces. Throw in smoke, movement (both target and shooter) and it'd make it extremely hard, if not near impossible to spot it.

Range is another factor - no bullet flies perfectly straight and level. Over distance the projectile will drop. Depending on the speed of the projectile, wind, air temperature, altitude (air pressure), and a multitude of other factors this might only be a few millimetres or it could be measurable in feet. Light from a laser on the other hand is usually uneffected by most of these factors.

[pmulcahy11b]

My brain hurts. I'll come back to this later -- maybe much later. Maybe let it percolate a while.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The ranges for the laser aimers are based on modern equipment. The only issue is whether a person can spot the laser dot or not, hence the Observation skill check. If it needs to be seen at longer ranges, you'll have to have some sort of magnifying sight.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Ive actually found that a red dot sight such as an Aim point easier to use then a laser and it is not effected by the environment. Ones vision might be though. You can readily see the red dot and do not have to try and look for it down range. its much more user friendly and seems to be quicker on acquiring the target. Also the red dot sight depending on type or quality can be used out to 300+ meters.

[B.T.]

Oh, man ...

This more complicated than I thought.

A very good idea is the Observation-check. I think, I'll definitely let my players do this.

But again to the supressors/silencers. Leg, you are defenitely right, in the case of assault rifles. But is it still the case if we talk about pistols? I still am not sure, but I think the ranges should be reduced, if a shot is at a longer distance than "short range".
I will certainly reduce the damage and the penetration of supressed weapons. Something like: -1 per 1D6. Not quite sure, how I'll do the Penetration decrease, maybe I'll take Paul's houserules.

Thanks, mates, you've really been a good help. If someone wants to give his 2 cents to this issue - I'd be glad for any further input!

Edit: When were armed forces beginning with the widespread issue of "red-dots"? I think, they will not be encountered in the T2k-world all that often, right?

[Gamer]

The only time I've ever seen laser sights good past short range is at night and with night vision, But then you better hope your opposition doesn't have NVS or your just telling everyone where you are.

I have no idea where some of you guys are getting your intel on suppressors affecting range, but it's actually negligible loss.
The only time you really loose range with suppressors is if you have to use the suppressors limiting you to subsonic ammo -with that ammo it doesn't matter if you have a suppressor on or not your range is limited.
Otherwise if you are loosing range it is definitely not installed correctly.

You should actually be getting better accuracy with the suppressor if it's installed it correctly.

[pmulcahy11b]

I think the range loss is as it pertains to subsonic rounds, which also tend to be pushing heavier bullets than standard. Rounds like .45 ACP, which are naturally subsonic, would not be affected by such. It would also depend upon the construction of the silencer.

The one first-hand source I have was a roommate of mine at 24th ID, who was with 2nd Ranger BN before an injury. He told me that while an MP5SD is very quiet (the bolt clatter is MUCH louder than the firing noise), the range is degraded significantly over a standard MP5. This, he said, was primarily due to the shorter rifled length of the barrel and something having to do with gas coming from the baffles. Silencers with wipes also degrade range. Brian Roethel knew his weapons, and was armorer-qualified on weapons I hadn't even heard of at the time. Most research I've done backs this up.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Gamer

The only time I've ever seen laser sights good past short range is at night and with night vision, But then you better hope your opposition doesn't have NVS or your just telling everyone where you are.

I have no idea where some of you guys are getting your intel on suppressors affecting range, but it's actually negligible loss.
The only time you really loose range with suppressors is if you have to use the suppressors limiting you to subsonic ammo -with that ammo it doesn't matter if you have a suppressor on or not your range is limited.
Otherwise if you are loosing range it is definitely not installed correctly.

You should actually be getting better accuracy with the suppressor if it's installed it correctly.

Uh not entirely correct.

The answer here is depends on the type of silencer.

An integrally silenced weapon, such as the aforementioned MP5SD, have holes drilled in the barrel to let out propelling gas.

The premise in those is that all ammo is reduced to subsonic speeds and the gases trapped in the can to muffle the report.

You statement is more or less correct for a can threaded to the end of an otherwise stock weapon. This also depends on if that can is designed to bleed gas and slow the bullet to under 1100 fps or not.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by B.T.

Edit: When were armed forces beginning with the widespread issue of "red-dots"? I think, they will not be encountered in the T2k-world all that often, right?

The first military use reported is the Son Tay Raid during the Vietnam War. Widespread use came in the late 90s with the US Army Infantry getting them. I think the USMC lagged a few years behind us. Other nationalities, I don't know about.

In game, things are bad in that timeframe, but I could see an argument to field them anyway to increase troop survivability and help the more poorly trained replacements to shoot better since their training would be rushed. YMMV, though.

Bottom line though, you could logically explain it.

[Gorbag]

I just had a brain thingie on this subject, so I thought I'd comment here.

The Israelis got big into red dot sights in the late 80s/early 90s. I can't for the life of me remember the name of the equipment they used, but I'm sure it's out there in the interwebnets. Aimpoint also got going in the early 90s (makers of the more popular red dot sights), so the technology was already existent, just not mature. I suppose you could argue within the T2K timeframe about US units acting in concert with Israelis, seeing the cool gear, and making a case for general issue (if not some trading/midnight requisitions for personal use).

[weswood]

Originally Posted by Eddie

In game, things are bad in that timeframe, but I could see an argument to field them anyway to increase troop survivability and help the more poorly trained replacements to shoot better since their training would be rushed. YMMV, though.

What does YMMV stand for? It's new to me.