Need your help/advice on optics , supressors and so on!

[Gamer]

The only time I've ever seen laser sights good past short range is at night and with night vision, But then you better hope your opposition doesn't have NVS or your just telling everyone where you are.

I have no idea where some of you guys are getting your intel on suppressors affecting range, but it's actually negligible loss.
The only time you really loose range with suppressors is if you have to use the suppressors limiting you to subsonic ammo -with that ammo it doesn't matter if you have a suppressor on or not your range is limited.
Otherwise if you are loosing range it is definitely not installed correctly.

You should actually be getting better accuracy with the suppressor if it's installed it correctly.

[pmulcahy11b]

I think the range loss is as it pertains to subsonic rounds, which also tend to be pushing heavier bullets than standard. Rounds like .45 ACP, which are naturally subsonic, would not be affected by such. It would also depend upon the construction of the silencer.

The one first-hand source I have was a roommate of mine at 24th ID, who was with 2nd Ranger BN before an injury. He told me that while an MP5SD is very quiet (the bolt clatter is MUCH louder than the firing noise), the range is degraded significantly over a standard MP5. This, he said, was primarily due to the shorter rifled length of the barrel and something having to do with gas coming from the baffles. Silencers with wipes also degrade range. Brian Roethel knew his weapons, and was armorer-qualified on weapons I hadn't even heard of at the time. Most research I've done backs this up.

[pmulcahy11b]

I think I see what's going here: the confusion between a silencer and a suppressor.

A silencer is designed to seriously knock down the sound of a weapon firing, and it generally does that with a combination of subsonic ammunition and a special device, the silencer, which works by both/or a set of baffles which use the firing gasses and wipes that physically touch the round going down the silencer to slow it, to contain firing gasses and stop the bullet from exiting the barrel at supersonic velocity. These will reduce range, penetration, and damage. Heavier bullets and steel-cored bullets are often used to compensate for this.

A suppressor does not "silence" a weapon (no silencer actually makes a weapon sound like it does in the movies, BTW) -- it dampens most of the muzzle blast, and while it reduces noise very little, can cause confusion as to where the shot came from when heard from a distance. The primary reason for the use of a suppressor is to eliminate firing signature. It would not reduce range, damage, or penetration, though they do tend to wear out eventually, degrading accuracy in the process.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Gamer

The only time I've ever seen laser sights good past short range is at night and with night vision, But then you better hope your opposition doesn't have NVS or your just telling everyone where you are.

I have no idea where some of you guys are getting your intel on suppressors affecting range, but it's actually negligible loss.
The only time you really loose range with suppressors is if you have to use the suppressors limiting you to subsonic ammo -with that ammo it doesn't matter if you have a suppressor on or not your range is limited.
Otherwise if you are loosing range it is definitely not installed correctly.

You should actually be getting better accuracy with the suppressor if it's installed it correctly.

Uh not entirely correct.

The answer here is depends on the type of silencer.

An integrally silenced weapon, such as the aforementioned MP5SD, have holes drilled in the barrel to let out propelling gas.

The premise in those is that all ammo is reduced to subsonic speeds and the gases trapped in the can to muffle the report.

You statement is more or less correct for a can threaded to the end of an otherwise stock weapon. This also depends on if that can is designed to bleed gas and slow the bullet to under 1100 fps or not.

[Milano]

I would tend to agree with ArmySGT. There are two types of suppressors integral and not integral.

Of the integral silencers I have never heard of one that doesn't reduce the speed of the full power cartidge bullet significantly. This does not mean that the bullet is always reduced to below the speed of sound. It would take quite a suppressor to slow a 7.62x51 to this level. That is why some weapons are designed to use subsonic ammunition, ie the AI Covert.

Of the "screw on" types there are two VERY general varieties. The first has wipes that slow the speed of the bullet and capture the expanding hot gasses and release them slowly. These have to be maintained often, like every 10 shots and are very very quiet. An, example is the silencer on the old Hush Puppy pistol.

The second is the type that just captures the gasses and releases them slowly. These are what is usually seen on movies etc. They do not slow the bullet and they do not hinder accuracy. However, without subsonic ammunition, they do not work as well as other types. There isn't the crack of the bullet leaving the muzzle but there is a definate "echo" of the bullet going downrange. Check Youtube and thee are alot of examples of these. (I saw one that really showed the difference. It was a guy fiing an m14 mod with both super and sub sonic rounds. WOW.)

[B.T.]

Two additional questions concerning optics and SOPMOD parts:

In my T2k-universe a limited number of SOPMOD rifles are available, issue M4 and improvized rails on other designs. Some of my players got their hands on SOPMODs.

1) The ACOGS: In game terms I use them as "sniper scope", which only means, "Rng" is 10 or 15 m higher.

2) An interesting question was raised by one of my players: Does an additional grip underneath the barrel decrease single shot recoil?
I'd say: "No!" Allthough the rifle is a little "bigger" than a rifle without a grip, I would just decrease "Bulk" by 1 point, if a person using an additional foregrip encounters a person with the same "Initiative" value.

Comments or hints, anyone?

Would come in handy, we'll be gaming on saturday - first session with the new "toys".

[Legbreaker]

I can't speak for an additional grip on the '16, but having used the Steyr AUG I'd say it would have little to no effect. It's purely a matter of personal preference and comfort whether the grip is down or up parallel to the barrel, although it can add a slight amount of stability in the prone position (where it's able to act a little like a monopod).

All in all, I'd say in the down position it may assist with reaction times at short range, but will do little for recoil controllability - weapon just naturally points better...

[pmulcahy11b]

Having never used a weapon with a foregrip, I can't say for sure, but I'd think that it would simply make some shooters feel more comfortable. On automatic, it might have some effect, but perhaps not enough to be accounted for by the T2K rules.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by B.T.

Two additional questions concerning optics and SOPMOD parts:

In my T2k-universe a limited number of SOPMOD rifles are available, issue M4 and improvized rails on other designs. Some of my players got their hands on SOPMODs.

1) The ACOGS: In game terms I use them as "sniper scope", which only means, "Rng" is 10 or 15 m higher.

The ACOG sights come in different magnification power, from 1.5 up to 6 power so they do work as a telescopic sight but you will have to know specifically what magnification power the particular ACOG has.
I would suggest using the table Paul Mulcahy has for the bonus to range for using such sights http://www.pmulcahy.com/equipment/vision_devices.html

Originally Posted by B.T.

2) An interesting question was raised by one of my players: Does an additional grip underneath the barrel decrease single shot recoil?
I'd say: "No!" Allthough the rifle is a little "bigger" than a rifle without a grip, I would just decrease "Bulk" by 1 point, if a person using an additional foregrip encounters a person with the same "Initiative" value.

Comments or hints, anyone?

Would come in handy, we'll be gaming on saturday - first session with the new "toys".

I agree with Legbreaker, I think a forward grip makes the weapon more comfortable to use and only helps in some way to control recoil but not in any way that the rules can actually cover. It can even make the weapon faster to manoeuvre but again the rules don't cover that sort of thing and I think your rule for decreasing Bulk for a weapon with a foregrip when two people have the same Initiative works well to cover that.

I believe that ultimately it comes down to the weapon and also the ammunition used. For example no matter how much you held onto the forward grip on the Austeyr/AUG the weapon always pulled up and to the right when firing bursts yet the M16A2 didn't pull up as much even though we fired exactly the same ammunition through them.

[Webstral]

I had the option of using the forward pistol grip with my M4 and chose not to. I tried both options during the rare moments of down time during the train-up, and the forward pistol grip never felt natural to me. Of course, I'm an arch conservative when it comes to these sorts of things. I "grew up" using the M16A2, and my use of the M4 reflected my inherited prejudices.

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by Webstral

I had the option of using the forward pistol grip with my M4 and chose not to. I tried both options during the rare moments of down time during the train-up, and the forward pistol grip never felt natural to me. Of course, I'm an arch conservative when it comes to these sorts of things. I "grew up" using the M16A2, and my use of the M4 reflected my inherited prejudices.

Why go with just a forward grip, when you can go with a "bipod grip"? A combination of a shorter bipod and forward grip, in one. :P I lol'd at this when pictures of those came out. "It looks like someone tore the feet off a chicken and forced them up the ass end of a grip!"

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

Why go with just a forward grip, when you can go with a "bipod grip"? A combination of a shorter bipod and forward grip, in one. :P I lol'd at this when pictures of those came out. "It looks like someone tore the feet off a chicken and forced them up the ass end of a grip!"

That could serve a useful purpose during room entries. Upon seeing the first US soldier through the doorway, the defenders might burst into laughter, thus giving the Americans a brief but welcome window of opportunity to acquire targets free from defensive fire.

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

Why go with just a forward grip, when you can go with a "bipod grip"? A combination of a shorter bipod and forward grip, in one. :P I lol'd at this when pictures of those came out. "It looks like someone tore the feet off a chicken and forced them up the ass end of a grip!"

Great!

Thanks a lot, guys. Informative and entertaining postings!

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I believe that ultimately it comes down to the weapon and also the ammunition used. For example no matter how much you held onto the forward grip on the Austeyr/AUG the weapon always pulled up and to the right when firing bursts yet the M16A2 didn't pull up as much even though we fired exactly the same ammunition through them.

I believe in that regard, unless I'm mistaken, it's due to the big recoil buffer and spring in the M16 (and also the M4), hence why it's rather easy to shoot.

In comparison, I heard the Steyr AUG doesn't quite have this setup, or the recoil buffer is smaller (someone please correct me here if I'm wrong!), hence recoil is slightly more of an issue. That and I hear the buttstock on the weapon isn't as comfortable to shoulder, but I'd like to hear opinions from our friends that have used the Steyr AUG before jumping to that conclusion.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

...I hear the buttstock on the weapon isn't as comfortable to shoulder, but I'd like to hear opinions from our friends that have used the Steyr AUG before jumping to that conclusion.

Personally I found the AUG a much easier weapon to carry and shoot, much better balances and generally more comfortable. It also felt a lot more solid and I was certainly more confident with it in my hands over a '16. Of course I still, and always will prefer the L1A1 SLR, or anything else in 7.62 for that matter.

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Personally I found the AUG a much easier weapon to carry and shoot, much better balances and generally more comfortable. It also felt a lot more solid and I was certainly more confident with it in my hands over a '16. Of course I still, and always will prefer the L1A1 SLR, or anything else in 7.62 for that matter.

Thanks for the input Legbreaker. And I have to ask since it pertains to a story I'm writing where a fairly, er, well-endowed woman's favorite shouldered weapon is a Steyr AUG....silly as it may sound, would being "well-endowed" create any sort of problem when using a bullpup weapon due to the magazine's location? I'm going to say, it shouldn't be unless she's like Dolly Parton (which she's NOT), though her measurements are roughly 36-24-36.