some thoughts on bruce

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Personally, once I have the 4th edition I'll be purging any socio-political aspects of the Project from the game for two reasons.
1. Saving humanity from extinction is enough of a reason to convince people to join the Project. Some people don't actually need an appeal to patriotism to encourage them to help humanity - it just comes across as jingoistic, which leads me on to my second point.
2. Making the game so inwardly focused on the USA will definitely weaken its appeal to some new gamers, particularly those not from the US. RPGs have a global market and many of us not from the US aren't so interested in another game that is about playing American PCs doing the "mom and apple pie" thing for America. It's one part of the reason for the failure of 93 Games Studio's revision of Twilight: 2000.

I'll also be toning down the time travel aspects because with today's knowledge of technology and potential future tech, you don't need to have Morrow travelling into the future to bring back the tech to make the Project work. You start mucking about with time and you get the mess that plagues Star Trek and the Terminator series.
I've never been too thrilled with the idea that Morrow had a lot of future knowledge of things such as that Prime Base was doomed because I've always been more than happy with the write up from the actual module itself that basically implies that he, along with the COT believed that a central command & control facility was needed and Prime Base was to be it. All the "might have beens", "could have beens" and "what ifs" of multiple time travels ends up making the situation very messy for the poor SOB running the game and there's already plenty of time travel RPGs out there for those interested in that stuff.

[kato13]

Given the original time frame the Us versus Them mentality is totally acceptable IMO. If the Soviet Union survives into the 21st century in a particular time line I see the rivalry continuing.

I read some piece of supplemental material (I have no idea if it is fan generated or canon), about Morrow being about rebuilding the US faster than the Soviet Union post WWIII (to prepare for WWIV I guess). This made sense for me as something that the COT would latch onto. Yes getting individuals to join would be hard, but convincing multi=billionaires to change their paths would be even harder in my opinion.

The tech they are demonstrated will not bring them long term wealth or power. The decisions that they make are not for themselves. In a cold war environment I certainly see using the fear that the Red Bear will conquer everything as a significant motivator. Remember this project starts in the 50's and the USSR is going to be the source of the missiles that rip the heart out of the US.

Sure once the Bear is gone it is easy to forget them, but given the times the COT came out of, I am sure "beating" them in some way would be a focus.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by kato13

Given the original time frame the Us versus Them mentality is totally acceptable IMO. If the Soviet Union survives into the 21st century in a particular time line I see the rivalry continuing.

I read some piece of supplemental material (I have no idea if it is fan generated or canon), about Morrow being about rebuilding the US faster than the Soviet Union post WWIII (to prepare for WWIV I guess). This made sense for me as something that the COT would latch onto. Yes getting individuals to join would be hard, but convincing multi=billionaires to change their paths would be even harder in my opinion.

The tech they are demonstrated will not bring them long term wealth or power. The decisions that they make are not for themselves. In a cold war environment I certainly see using the fear that the Red Bear will conquer everything as a significant motivator. Remember this project starts in the 50's and the USSR is going to be the source of the missiles that rip the heart out of the US.

Sure once the Bear is gone it is easy to forget them, but given the times the COT came out of, I am sure "beating" them in some way would be a focus.

Exactly...

Using the Timetravel aspects also allows for the CoT trying to do what ever they could change the future. But each change they do only postponed TEOTWAWKI event, not stop it. Sort of like the Terminator movies.

[kato13]

While I am personally gung-ho about the Constitution, I never put it into my games with the same passion you are presenting. However I can see the logic of the Project using it as a core. It would much harder to recruit the COT and the tens of thousand of followers by saying "well anything we build is going to be based on our 'modified' form of the Constitution" or "We have come up with a new post EOTWaWKT governmental plan". Everyone would ask "Well wait what changes are you making?" and odds are a significant percentage would be upset with any particular change.

I am sure the COT would love some changes to the interstate commerce clause, just as I am sure a small percentage would want changes in the Roe vs Wade interpretation of the right to privacy. Once you start down that path you end up with something no one would accept.

Of course during the initial phases of reconstruction just about everything except is up for grabs, but bringing people back to the "normality" of the Prewar US being a long term goal makes sense.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by kato13

While I am personally gung-ho about the Constitution, I never put it into my games with the same passion you are presenting. However I can see the logic of the Project using it as a core. It would much harder to recruit the COT and the tens of thousand of followers by saying "well anything we build is going to be based on our 'modified' form of the Constitution" or "We have come up with a new post EOTWaWKT governmental plan". Everyone would ask "Well wait what changes are you making?" and odds are a significant percentage would be upset with any particular change.

I am sure the COT would love some changes to the interstate commerce clause, just as I am sure a small percentage would want changes in the Roe vs Wade interpretation of the right to privacy. Once you start down that path you end up with something no one would accept.

Of course during the initial phases of reconstruction just about everything except is up for grabs, but bringing people back to the "normality" of the Prewar US being a long term goal makes sense.

That's exactly my point Kato... The Constitution was the basic building block that our Republic was founded upon. From it everything else springs forth from it.

But if i'm passionate about the Constitution, it comes from my ancestor SIGNING that document that has inspired so many wonderful (and yes, at times horrible) things to happen during the past 230+ years.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Personally, once I have the 4th edition I'll be purging any socio-political aspects of the Project from the game for two reasons.
1. Saving humanity from extinction is enough of a reason to convince people to join the Project. Some people don't actually need an appeal to patriotism to encourage them to help humanity - it just comes across as jingoistic, which leads me on to my second point.
2. Making the game so inwardly focused on the USA will definitely weaken its appeal to some new gamers, particularly those not from the US. RPGs have a global market and many of us not from the US aren't so interested in another game that is about playing American PCs doing the "mom and apple pie" thing for America. It's one part of the reason for the failure of 93 Games Studio's revision of Twilight: 2000.

Socio-Political aspect? I don't see how reestablishing a constitutional republic is either to far to the right or the left. It's a building block that created the American republic... a Republic that has become the world's superpower in just a hundred and fifty years. The constitution has inspired other nations constitution's as well. It's something that EVERYONE can read and see that those ideals are universal. Ask the people who are immigrating here why they're coming... it's because of the American Dream that ANYONE can become the next big thing.

I'm sorry if you think that's chauvinistic. But it's not. I've talked to to many immigrants to this country (both legal and not) who said they came here for the opportunities that our Republic provided.

The Morrow Project was focused on the USA, but the Atlantis Project was focused on the rest of the world. So if the game seems too centred on the USA... well, it was set in a shattered USA in a post-TEOTWAWKI. And they didn't describe what happened to the rest of the world in the main book or other sourcebooks.

The reason why T2013 failed to catch on was many. Not the fact it was focused so heavily on the USA market.

I'll also be toning down the time travel aspects because with today's knowledge of technology and potential future tech, you don't need to have Morrow travelling into the future to bring back the tech to make the Project work. You start mucking about with time and you get the mess that plagues Star Trek and the Terminator series.
I've never been too thrilled with the idea that Morrow had a lot of future knowledge of things such as that Prime Base was doomed because I've always been more than happy with the write up from the actual module itself that basically implies that he, along with the COT believed that a central command & control facility was needed and Prime Base was to be it. All the "might have beens", "could have beens" and "what ifs" of multiple time travels ends up making the situation very messy for the poor SOB running the game and there's already plenty of time travel RPGs out there for those interested in that stuff.

Actually the module stressed that Bruce DID NOT want Prime Base. That he was overruled by CoT when he was away and when he returned the base was already under construction and couldn't be stopped. Bruce E. Morrow wanted a decentralized command and control that would have been based on regional command bases.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Socio-Political aspect? I don't see how reestablishing a constitutional republic is either to far to the right or the left. It's a building block that created the American republic... a Republic that has become the world's superpower in just a hundred and fifty years. The constitution has inspired other nations constitution's as well. It's something that EVERYONE can read and see that those ideals are universal. Ask the people who are immigrating here why they're coming... it's because of the American Dream that ANYONE can become the next big thing.

I'm sorry if you think that's chauvinistic. But it's not. I've talked to to many immigrants to this country (both legal and not) who said they came here for the opportunities that our Republic provided.

The Morrow Project was focused on the USA, but the Atlantis Project was focused on the rest of the world. So if the game seems too centred on the USA... well, it was set in a shattered USA in a post-TEOTWAWKI. And they didn't describe what happened to the rest of the world in the main book or other sourcebooks.

The reason why T2013 failed to catch on was many. Not the fact it was focused so heavily on the USA market.



Actually the module stressed that Bruce DID NOT want Prime Base. That he was overruled by CoT when he was away and when he returned the base was already under construction and couldn't be stopped. Bruce E. Morrow wanted a decentralized command and control that would have been based on regional command bases.

Nothing to do with chauvinism, everything to do with the fact that I am not from the USA and I like the game as it is in 3rd edition and I don't see a need to use the US constitution as a goad to make people join the Project. I couldn't give a rat's arse if it was the building block of anything or nothing, my aim with the game is to have fun and in the end, any deep philosophical or socio-political aspect is irrelevant because many players don't actually pay it that much attention.
And I'll say it again, those of us who aren't from the US, don't necessarily want to be playing games were the PCs are Americans saving America. We don't actually care about real world politics in games and some of us prefer not to have it so obvious.
Publish the Atlantis Project and this won't ever be an issue.

In regards to 2013, I think you should actually ask people not from the US what they thought of it. Too many gun books, too little about the rest of the world is a comment I hear often and that can easily be seen based on the products actually released. I base my statement on having spoken to gamers from Australia, Singapore, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada, the UK, Ireland, Germany and Israel who all reiterated the same thing - I might be interested if it wasn't so focused on America.

[drashal]

removed by user

[kato13]

I think we all have to accept that there are huge gaps in canon and how we fill those gaps will vary wildly from person to person.

Yes we can quote chapter and verse of the Morrow "Scriptures", but just like any religious text much is left to individual interpretation (not to mention them also containing many contradictions).

Luckily each of us creates our own world and none of us are forced to play in another's.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by drashal

this will probably get me kicked but have you really read prime base .... every time Bruce is listed in the book he is shown as supporting prime base btw that would be page 8 6th paragraph , page 10 11th paragraph ,and page 72 6th paragraph these are the only mentions of Bruce any where in the module

as for the Phoenix teams please read page 72 the breakdown of the requirements for the team , then page 73 paragraph 5 for what type of people you are dealing with.

what you are saying is conjecture and not canon i made a point that these are my thoughts on bruce but you are treating me like i have blasphemed for my ideas ,if the canon material was a little heavier on the fluff of the background then you make the claims you are making , but its not and slamming people for their ideas is not how you win supporters of yours for a long time i thought a lot of the ideas presented here where good ones but its obvious that you have come to the opinion that only your view point is right and we are all wrong .

i am sorry if this upsets you but i do not like being told that i am wrong when the published facts back me up.

If you claim to know every thing and then tell people they are wrong have your facts right. otherwise you get fubars like this

Actually I have read the damn thing multiple times, and ran the module three times for three different groups.

And you are definitely the pot calling the kettle black.

NO WHERE in any of the books does it describe Morrow as a heartless bastard as you have been portraying him in your posts.

And the module write-up does describe Phoenix Team as a SOCOM type group. Because one of those groups i ran through Prime Base, had a US Navy SEAL Chief Petty Officer, A US Army Special Forces Staff Sergeant and a US Air Force Combat Controller Technical Sergeant on it. And when i let them read the write-up for the Phoenix Team after we played he game they STRESSED that Phoenix trains like they did, wish they did not have to use the skills they have trained so damn hard to get. That when they are deployed they hit hard and fast without mercy. But it doesn't change the fact they are still human, and that they have a desire NOT to have to kill anyone.

A Death Squad is a group of cold blooded killers who go out and kill ANYONE who sees them when they go in and do their bloody work. SOCOM goes in like a scalpel and kills only those that they HAVE TO KILL and get out without anyone seeing them.

[drashal]

removed by user

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by drashal

nor does it say that he is a kind and genital sole it has no background or personality on him but the blip in the opening of tm-1

If you had a high school education level reading comprehension ability you would have read that no where did i say that the phoenix team was a bunch of assassin what i said was

"Think about it Bruce would have to know about the disaster that will happen their. This really explains why the phoenix crew is their more than any thing else. They probably are the only folks in the entire project that knew what relay was going to happen. Here you have Bruce’s hand picked backup leadership team stashed away in the bottom of a base that he knows will be killed off (that’s really cold). And lets look at who he got killed off (most if not all of the pre collapse project leadership) (the Science teams their would have been mostly the admin and set thought pattern varieties) because he had the progressive Science personal assigned to the Science teams. No one in the prime base was really needed to start the rebuilding of a country. (Prime base is where the clerks and the bookkeepers went. heck probably all the law degrees that managed to get into the project where tier too)"


I think you realy need to back to school and learn to understand what you read not what you think you have read.

btw as for the government set up i rather use the CAS constitution than the USA one (preset term limits, set rules for interstate commerce , hard caps on what the federal government can and cant do) and before you call me a racist or something i said use the ideas of their constitution not their society or morals.

Before you tell ANYONE to go back to school, you need to at least learn to spell.

The CSA (Confederate States of America) constitution might have been good (well, it was almost a word for word copy of the US one), it EXPRESSLY permitted Slavery. Go read it again.

You might not been the one to call Phoenix a death squad, but others have, and they are the ones i was talking to.

One again, you are nothing more than a Pot calling a Kettle black.

The descriptions of Bruce is that he was not cold nor heartless. No one who is cold and heartless would do what he had done in the game background. That in of itself says alot about the man.

[shenglu]

I can see using it as a core project of the logic. It will be difficult to say, "and any of our construction is based on our" constitutional amendment "form" or "We have a new post EOTWaWKT government plans to recruit hundreds of thousands of cribs and tens of thousands of followers."

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Nothing to do with chauvinism, everything to do with the fact that I am not from the USA and I like the game as it is in 3rd edition and I don't see a need to use the US constitution as a goad to make people join the Project. I couldn't give a rat's arse if it was the building block of anything or nothing, my aim with the game is to have fun and in the end, any deep philosophical or socio-political aspect is irrelevant because many players don't actually pay it that much attention.
And I'll say it again, those of us who aren't from the US, don't necessarily want to be playing games were the PCs are Americans saving America. We don't actually care about real world politics in games and some of us prefer not to have it so obvious.
Publish the Atlantis Project and this won't ever be an issue.

you know, you are a real horses arse with how you're acting. just because you're upset that an RPG that was from its design was about rebuilding the USA after a nuclear war is based in the USA and is focused on the USA... it really makes all of this so damn funny.

you are one of the ONLY people who i've talked in the past twenty-five years who's so damn pissed off about the Morrow Project RPG being so American focused.

the only 'socio-political aspect' would be putting faith on rebuilding the USA using the constitution to rally a shattered nation around. Because that would be the one thing that could get everyone behind it here. It would be just like the UK having the monarchy, and a project for reconstruction using the Crown as a way to rally the populace. If that was the way the game was set up, i don't know anyone who'd be pissed about that. Because the game would be set in the UK with UK values being the focus. It's like watching Sanctuary or Doctor Who.

Both are focused on the UK, and we love it just as it is. Hell, my soon to be ex-wife was stunned that i was such a dedicated constitutionalist republican when it came to the USA, but was a dedicated Monarchist when it came to the UK. I told her, "if it's not broke, don't fix it." And no, i don't hold the British People responsible for the horrors that woman has put me or my family through.

In regards to 2013, I think you should actually ask people not from the US what they thought of it. Too many gun books, too little about the rest of the world is a comment I hear often and that can easily be seen based on the products actually released. I base my statement on having spoken to gamers from Australia, Singapore, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada, the UK, Ireland, Germany and Israel who all reiterated the same thing - I might be interested if it wasn't so focused on America.

I've talked with other games form all around the world about T2013 as well, and it wasn't the US-centred parts that upset then. it was the background's timeline that was just so screwed up and unbelievable. To them that was the hardest of the pills to swallow, not that their part of the world wasn't covered by what was going on in the world.

To them that allowed them to write their own sourcebook (something they say they prefered with just how screwed up the setting was) because they threw the setting as it was written out the window because they really didn't like how it was written.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

you know, you are a real horses arse with how you're acting. just because you're upset that an RPG that was from its design was about rebuilding the USA after a nuclear war is based in the USA and is focused on the USA... it really makes all of this so damn funny.

I accept that we have very different views on the way the game is and how it could be. I see the Morrow Project as a lifeboat that sailed too late, you see it as a passenger liner, hell, maybe even a whole flotilla of passenger liners.
For me the charm of the game was that a small group of people got together in an effort to save humanity but they got there a little too late and now they struggle with the little they have so that they can survive and perhaps make a difference.
You're very gung ho for having the US constitution as a central tenent of the Project and having the Project along the lines of some huge governmental organization with plenty of supplies and having the knowledge that they would wake up 150 years after the war, okay that's fine, we're all different and have different ideas about our games.

I'm happy to argue game issues, canon or non-canon material or what's best for 'x' situation and I'm happy to accept that sometimes it might get a little heated because different people have different ideas but the real difference between you and I is that I prefer not to stoop to insulting someone just because they disagree with my personal beliefs.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I accept that we have very different views on the way the game is and how it could be. I see the Morrow Project as a lifeboat that sailed too late, you see it as a passenger liner, hell, maybe even a whole flotilla of passenger liners.
For me the charm of the game was that a small group of people got together in an effort to save humanity but they got there a little too late and now they struggle with the little they have so that they can survive and perhaps make a difference.
You're very gung ho for having the US constitution as a central tenent of the Project and having the Project along the lines of some huge governmental organization with plenty of supplies and having the knowledge that they would wake up 150 years after the war, okay that's fine, we're all different and have different ideas about our games.

I'm happy to argue game issues, canon or non-canon material or what's best for 'x' situation and I'm happy to accept that sometimes it might get a little heated because different people have different ideas but the real difference between you and I is that I prefer not to stoop to insulting someone just because they disagree with my personal beliefs.

Really? Because the way you're acting says otherwise.

I have not said it's a flotilla of passenger liners. Hell, the main books state that not even a FRACTION of the project has been activated. I've been writing about HOW the project was suppose to work AT THE TIME IT WAS SUPPOSE TO GO ACTIVE. Five to Ten years post-TEOTWAWKI. Not 150 years. If i was going for the project starting 150+ years after the event, there would be a hell of alot of things I'd be doing different.

The whole point of the game was that your characters were part of something LARGER than themselves, and that they are out of their element when they wake up. They were suppose to work within the framework of the Project. But when they wake up they find out that there was a major clusterfuck that's occurred and they are waking up in a situation where it's JUST THEM operating all on their own. They don't have the resources they were suppose to have, and they have to do the job all themselves.

My work is to show HOW the project was suppose to work. Do you really think ANYONE would have volunteered knowing they would wake up isolated without someone getting their backs?

I know I might, but i'm crazy that way. I've always put others needs ahead of my own. Even after all i've been through, i still put others ahead of myself, and have opened my home up to strangers so they can have a place to live instead of the streets more than once. And yes the first time i did it, i got screwed, but i'm still doing it.

you see things as just a lifeboat that set sail too late. if that was the case, even the team would be helpless and their mission hopeless. But of course the game books state that was not the case. Not even a fraction of the project and it's assets have been activated. The project IS a large thing, and once the Phoenix Team activated Prime Base they started to kick the project off. That was the entire purpose of that module. Even if the GM didn't activate Phoenix team or inculde it in his world. The PCs that discovered the base, were to get the entire project back on its feet.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I have not said it's a flotilla of passenger liners. Hell, the main books state that not even a FRACTION of the project has been activated. I've been writing about HOW the project was suppose to work AT THE TIME IT WAS SUPPOSE TO GO ACTIVE. Five to Ten years post-TEOTWAWKI. Not 150 years. If i was going for the project starting 150+ years after the event, there would be a hell of alot of things I'd be doing different.

The whole point of the game was that your characters were part of something LARGER than themselves, and that they are out of their element when they wake up. They were suppose to work within the framework of the Project. But when they wake up they find out that there was a major clusterfuck that's occurred and they are waking up in a situation where it's JUST THEM operating all on their own. They don't have the resources they were suppose to have, and they have to do the job all themselves.

My work is to show HOW the project was suppose to work. Do you really think ANYONE would have volunteered knowing they would wake up isolated without someone getting their backs?

I know I might, but i'm crazy that way. I've always put others needs ahead of my own. Even after all i've been through, i still put others ahead of myself, and have opened my home up to strangers so they can have a place to live instead of the streets more than once. And yes the first time i did it, i got screwed, but i'm still doing it.

you see things as just a lifeboat that set sail too late. if that was the case, even the team would be helpless and their mission hopeless. But of course the game books state that was not the case. Not even a fraction of the project and it's assets have been activated. The project IS a large thing, and once the Phoenix Team activated Prime Base they started to kick the project off. That was the entire purpose of that module. Even if the GM didn't activate Phoenix team or inculde it in his world. The PCs that discovered the base, were to get the entire project back on its feet.

This part I have no disagreement with, it's back to debating the information/issue at hand but this part...

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Really? Because the way you're acting says otherwise.

You need to recognize and fully understand that I am not attacking you just because I have disagreed with the way you see the game but the statement above and your comment to Drashal ("Before you tell ANYONE to go back to school, you need to at least learn to spell.") makes me think that you believe we are trying to belittle/attack you. This is not the case.

I'm happy to argue about the game with you and if we could meet in real life we could shout at each other, grind our teeth, pull out our hair and glare at each other then buy some food or drinks (or both) and realize we are both as interested in the game but just see it in different ways. However, continued name-calling makes that entirely too unlikely and makes this forum a whole lot less pleasant to inhabit.