Favorite T2K-era APC/IFV

[Panther Al]

You mean the Merkava? Yes, about the same, but recall that the Merkava still retains all its abilities as a main battle tank while doing so. Just the ammo load is dropped to 24 rounds. The Namer, based on a turretless Merkava I've heard holds around 10, though I have seen reports saying a little more and a little less. But the Namer isn't an IFV, its (A one hell of) an APC.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah that the problem with IFVs. The turret takes up room that could be used by troops. Granted the M113 dismount was full Infantry Squad and going to the M2 it dropped to 7 men or less. Even then one could re-organize the fire team to drop the extra rifleman and still function as a Squad. On the other hand as you add more and more to the IFV the dismounted consisted of Fire Team, and what ever other flavor a unit SOP would use the remainder of them for.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Yeah that the problem with IFVs. The turret takes up room that could be used by troops. Granted the M113 dismount was full Infantry Squad and going to the M2 it dropped to 7 men or less. Even then one could re-organize the fire team to drop the extra rifleman and still function as a Squad. On the other hand as you add more and more to the IFV the dismounted consisted of Fire Team, and what ever other flavor a unit SOP would use the remainder of them for.

Abbott,

If we're looking at a single vehicle operating alone in the context of (say) Kalsiz, then probably a BTR/OT-64 is a great choice due to the large passenger capacity. If you have other vehicles like Humvees or a Deuce present, then space becomes less of a factor.

Tony

[Panther Al]

Hrm, I agree that if you had but one vehicle, an APC would be better than and IFV for no other reason than beeing able to tote stuff around.

As far as IFV's go, I had a thought, if you had to pick the penultimate IFV, then the Merkava would qualify! High Firepower, High Protection, High Mobility, and only average troop capacity.

[Abbott Shaull]

You know it always made me wonder with the adoption of the the Stryker Vehicle system. Why they went with Platoons with only basic Stryker, and not mix the platoon with 2 of the conventional Stryker and the other two with more of LAV-25 set up. Giving the platoon better fire-power.

Granted the Merkava and their APC version would make a great team. Adding two of the APC version with platoon of Merkava with dismounts would give you a full dismount infantry platoon.

[Legbreaker]

It's worth noting that just because a vehicle has an official passenger capacity of say 8, it doesn't mean that's all it can carry.

I've personally been sardined in the back of a buttoned Australian M113 with 14 men (plus 2 crew) including packs. Note that with the addition of the commanders turret, the rated capacity is only 9 passengers. It wasn't all that comfortable, but still better than walking.
To give you an idea of how tight it was, consider that approximately 2 packs take up about the same space as a person. Now consider cramming 20 people into a small car....

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Now consider cramming 20 people into a small car....

Clowns do it all the time...

[Legbreaker]

Hmmm, we did have paint on our faces, no red noses though.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Clowns do it all the time...

Always wondered were clowns learned to stuff a car...

[Panther Al]

Huh, well that might be the reason why I always heard Benning referred to as Clown School...

[DCausey]

I chose the LAV-25 mostly based on the mobility and repair ability mentioned above by several posters and partly because I just love the look of the thing.

[swaghauler]

The IDF is at it again... Here's the new APC based on the Merkava tank chassis.

https://youtu.be/BfDPulPKY8Y

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

The IDF is at it again... Here's the new APC based on the Merkava tank chassis.

https://youtu.be/BfDPulPKY8Y

Not really all that new. Back before the Great Recession, the IDF was in talks with Lima Army Tank Plant to build 300 of them for them since they didn't have the manufacturing capacity to build them as well as the Mk4's they wanted to build at the same time. When the Recession hit, something had to give budget wise, and the Namer was pushed back.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well, if Chalkline is going to choose a vehicle purely on the notion of being a special snowflake then I'm going to do it to!

I choose...
Ratel 20 IFV

Where am I going to get one besides South Africa?
Morocco took delivery of around 70 (two variants, the Ratel 20 and the Ratel 90) during 1981-1982.

I don't intend going swimming with it so a lack of amphibious ability isn't too much of a concern, I don't intend hunting anything carrying a gun larger than a .50 cal. with it so the APC level of armour shouldn't be too much of a concern. Like Chalkline mentioned about his choice, it's a bus with some minor protection and a bit of fire support.
It's tall, tall like the OT-64 SKOT, which makes it great for seeing over the long grass of the veldt but maybe not so useful in Europe and you probably want to avoid street fighting.

But...
It has a range of approximately 1000km with 530 litres of fuel and can travel at speeds up to 105kph on roads. It also comes fitted with two 50 litre drinking water reservoirs.
Comes standard with 3 doors, left & right sides with the third at the rear and also has four large roof hatches plus a smaller hatch at the rear for AA defence.
Armament consists of a 20mm autocannon in the turret plus additional 7.62mm MGs on pintle mounts as required.
3 crew and 9 passengers, lots of storage space.

Now I just got to get it from Morocco, through Spain and into Central Europe!
So yes, I could avoid all the problems if I just decided on the OT-64 instead (plus the -64 is amphibious) but I really, really, really like the Ratel



Rear access (vehicle is the ZT3 ATGW version and not the Ratel 20 but the basic hull is identical)


Side doors

[Raellus]

The Ratel also just looks cool.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Raellus

The Ratel also just looks cool.

Yes indeed!
When I saw pictures of the Ratel for the first time, it seemed futuristic compared to the military vehicles I was used to seeing in the 1980s. That appeal might have changed in theme over time but it has never diminished, the Ratel just looks too "cool" to forget!


Gratuitous Ratel 90 images:
90mm gun

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Not really all that new. Back before the Great Recession, the IDF was in talks with Lima Army Tank Plant to build 300 of them for them since they didn't have the manufacturing capacity to build them as well as the Mk4's they wanted to build at the same time. When the Recession hit, something had to give budget wise, and the Namer was pushed back.

Yeah, Namer entered service in 2008, but in very low quantities - by 2014, there were only 120 in service. The goal is to reach around 530 in service so they can replace the M113s still in use.

2016 saw the decision to add Trophy to Namer as a hard-kill anti-missile defense. In 2017 they showed a prototype with an uncrewed 30mm turret, but AFAIK that hasn't entered production.

The new Israeli IFV is Eitan.

[bash]

Meant to post this earlier but sort of forgot. I voted "Other" because my favorite IFV in T2K is the Toyota Hilux (or other 3/4 ton pickup). In my Red Dawn-ish game pickups were the main player vehicles. They had pintle mounts welded to roll bars for M2s and M60s. Their main defense was GTFO rather than stand up fights.

This repeated in an East Europe game. The players preferred the lower profile of civilian pickups over military trucks or APCs. Two characters with dirt bikes that would scout ahead of the truck convoy to avoid encounters with heavier vehicles. They also camouflaged the trucks to look like locals driving beaters so as to not draw attention when they couldn't avoid an encounter.

[Ursus Maior]

I voted for the Bradley, I loved that thing as a model for wargaming. I would have voted for the Marder 1, if it had been available, because that's what I rode.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Ursus Maior

I voted for the Bradley, I loved that thing as a model for wargaming. I would have voted for the Marder 1, if it had been available, because that's what I rode.

I think the Marder on the list is meant to be a 1A1, it could easily be a typo that left out the A and made it 11?

Edit: Looking at the poll again it's not Marder 11 it's definitely Marder II so that is a bit of a problem. I believe the Marder II was a WW era tank destroyer.
Still, I can't help thinking that the Marder on the poll is meant to be the IFV

[Ursus Maior]

I think the poll meant the Marder 2, a prototype vehicle of the 80s, which was supposed to deliver an IFV side-kick to the then-new Leopard 2.

I think, I remember it appearing in an older T2k publication.

Link to German Wikipedia: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marder_2

[Raellus]

The poll option refers to the Marder IFV. I typed "Marder II" in error (I was probably reading about WW2 at the time). Sorry for the confusion. I think it's too late to edit the poll, but I'll check, just in case.

-

[Ursus Maior]

Thanks for the clarification!

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

You mean the Merkava? Yes, about the same, but recall that the Merkava still retains all its abilities as a main battle tank while doing so. Just the ammo load is dropped to 24 rounds. The Namer, based on a turretless Merkava I've heard holds around 10, though I have seen reports saying a little more and a little less. But the Namer isn't an IFV, its (A one hell of) an APC.

Its a beast - we bid on making it when I was at BAE and got to see several up close and personal. And you are right an IFV its not.