Germany in T2K

[Mohoender]

Thanks for this I find it very interesting. I have one further question concerning v2.2.

In my own timeline, when the Soviets cross into Germany, I have a number of former East German Army troopers joining with the Soviets and forming either the Karl Marx Korps or the Karl Marx Division (I like the korps better as it includes a number of air force units). What do you think of it?

[Panther Al]

As far as the G11 being against the Geneva Convention, I rather doubt it. In my mind, the work on the G36 (Or any of the 5.56 AR's) would have to be restarted more or less once the G11 gets flushed down the loo. While eventually they would adopt the G36, until they did the G3 would return, with perhaps another production run to make sure that there is parts and such available since I am assuming that some of the pulled G3's would have been sold on the market. Of course, all this depends on the point of view that they got a limited production run of the G11, announced that it was the new official standard, and after a short time came to the conclusion that it wasn't such a great idea after all. If they never did adopt the G11, I see the G3 staying strong right up till the war: I figure that with the storm clouds on the horizon that they would ramp back on a totally new rifle and all that goes with it in order to prevent confusion in a war should it happen.

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

As far as the G11 being against the Geneva Convention, I rather doubt it. In my mind, the work on the G36 (Or any of the 5.56 AR's) would have to be restarted more or less once the G11 gets flushed down the loo. While eventually they would adopt the G36, until they did the G3 would return, with perhaps another production run to make sure that there is parts and such available since I am assuming that some of the pulled G3's would have been sold on the market. Of course, all this depends on the point of view that they got a limited production run of the G11, announced that it was the new official standard, and after a short time came to the conclusion that it wasn't such a great idea after all. If they never did adopt the G11, I see the G3 staying strong right up till the war: I figure that with the storm clouds on the horizon that they would ramp back on a totally new rifle and all that goes with it in order to prevent confusion in a war should it happen.

I personally think the G11 wouldn't have panned out terribly well, and that basically Germany would have been in a remarkable goat rodeo when the balloon went up, with:

1) G11 + Teething Problems in service with some units
2) G3 with most everyone else
3) Inherited NVA forces with AK-74s
4) Inherited NVA reserves still running AKMs
5) Some HK 33s and G41s available, but not enough

So four different calibers in service, with the likelihood of a fifth being added to the mix, and when 5.56mm is added you have two different platforms that don't use compatible magazines.

I don't think the G36 would exist in the traditional T2K timeline --> G11 never gets scrapped when the wall comes down --> HK never goes t*ts up, financially --> Royal Ordnance doesn't buy HK, and doesn't have them do the L85A2 tune up* --> HK interest in the AR-18 bolt design in lieu of roller lock never develops.

(* -- Whole other painful topic, obviously)

Though if people wanted G36s running around for cool points, I suppose they're not beyond the realm of the possible as a primary service weapon with the Bundeswehr (or one of them).

[Panther Al]

Delving into the the various weapons and timelines, yes, I agree, swap G36 for G41. Still, agree on the whole, the G11, while an outstanding system, was a little too far ahead of its time.

[Legbreaker]

On the other hand, the G11 may have eliminated the need for 9mmP submachineguns in general service and eventually "companion" weapons in the same calibre would have been developed (pistols, carbine/smgs, light machineguns, etc).
If reunification had not occurred, the G11 was sure to have been taken into service in my opinion - the requirements for such a weapon had been laid down 20 years earlier and the G11 filled all of them admirably. At the time, the G3 was the standard service rifle, the G41, G36, etc all still to come.

Therefore, the Germans would only have had 4.7mm and 7.62N to worry about, at least initially. The G41 would have been placed on the back burner while the G11 was issued to the front line units. Once that was mostly complete, then the G3 would have been removed (the whole process taking a couple of years in all likelihood). There would have been little need to supply front line units with 7.62 (belted, certainly, but loose rounds would only be needed for speciality weapons such as sniper rifles), and certainly no need for 5.56 at all.

It is my understanding that IRL, the AK variants used by the East Germans were not taken into service but replaced as soon as they possibly could be by G3s. I believe a large percentage of East German military personnel were also rendered unemployed by the reunification.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

On the other hand, the G11 may have eliminated the need for 9mmP submachineguns in general service and eventually "companion" weapons in the same calibre would have been developed (pistols, carbine/smgs, light machineguns, etc).
If reunification had not occurred, the G11 was sure to have been taken into service in my opinion - the requirements for such a weapon had been laid down 20 years earlier and the G11 filled all of them admirably. At the time, the G3 was the standard service rifle, the G41, G36, etc all still to come.

Therefore, the Germans would only have had 4.7mm and 7.62N to worry about, at least initially. The G41 would have been placed on the back burner while the G11 was issued to the front line units. Once that was mostly complete, then the G3 would have been removed (the whole process taking a couple of years in all likelihood). There would have been little need to supply front line units with 7.62 (belted, certainly, but loose rounds would only be needed for speciality weapons such as sniper rifles), and certainly no need for 5.56 at all...

If the G11 was taken into service, then the G41 would have been too.
The G41 was developed from the HK33 with such differences as making use of the NATO STANAG magazine instead of the HK mag, a bolt hold open device and an M16 style dust cover for the ejection port. As such, it's basically just an upgraded HK33.

It was developed alongside the G11 as a companion piece because the G11 was never intended to be issued in such numbers that every West German soldier would have one. It was strictly for the combat arms while the G41 was to be issued to the support services (as well as those navy and air force units that needed a rifle). You're right that it would not have been a frontline weapon but it was definitely going to be issued to the West German forces.

The G41 was still on offer to the Bundeswehr until 1989 when it was rejected in favour of a more modern design (probably also had something to do with the fact that it was generally heavier than other 5.56mm rifles). That rejection lead to the development of the G36 now in service.

[Legbreaker]

By back burner I mean that rolling out the G11 would have taken precedence over the G41. The G41 would have only had to wait a year or three though while the G11 logitistical trail and retraining was sorted out.
Introduction of two weapons systems on such a wide scale would be very difficult if done concurrently with each other.

Here in Australia, the F88 Steyr AUG took several years to transition to, and that was just one weapon and a much smaller military than Germany.

[cro]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Thanks for this I find it very interesting. I have one further question concerning v2.2.

In my own timeline, when the Soviets cross into Germany, I have a number of former East German Army troopers joining with the Soviets and forming either the Karl Marx Korps or the Karl Marx Division (I like the korps better as it includes a number of air force units). What do you think of it?

Charming Idea. But Korps is a bloody big organisation (several 10.000 men). Even Division is extremly big. It would mean that nearly every former East German Army Trooper joined the Sovjets.
I suggest to build up a Karl Marx Korps but unsing "Korps" only as a title. Like the Freikorps (= Free Koprs) during the phase of revolution 1919/20 and so on. These Korps were regimental-size.


According to the G11. Well, everyting is said, isn't it?
But it was new to me, that there was a lot of interest outside Germany, even years later.
In my own timeline, we don't use the G11. Every German unit uses the G3. Maybe its because all of my former players were draftees in the late 90ies and they (and I) used the G3. Later on I (especially during my both rotos in AFG) used the G36 and it is a marvelous rifle.