Survival of the US 5th ID (M)

[Legbreaker]

I can't imagine the Pact resting until the 5th were destroyed. There's a LOT of units in the area to draw upon, and with the 5th's lack of fuel, all they need to do is keep them pinned for a while until they reorganise and bring up reinforcements.

The situation is different with the 8th - there's very little Pact strength remaining in their area and with one Pact division ready to change sides (if they haven't already - AFB)....
The only thing the 8th and 5th have in common is their lack of fuel.

[Abbott Shaull]

Well by the time of their destruction not many of the Pact forces were willingly pursuing the 5th Mechanized Division. A number of things could of happen, if the 5th Mechanized Division was able to find maps early enough in the start of the 4th Soviet GTA during their counter attack. If and only if they had Polish and Soviet speaking who were able to give false transmissions soon enough, then maybe on the outside chance they could organize a break-out from where they were.

Yet, one has to remember the 4th GTA was attacking from the Southeast, the 22nd CA from the Northeast, as well as an Polish Army that was still in pursuit from the northwest. The 3rd Shock Army wasn't in no position to block to the southwest, but their maybe enough of gap for them to slip to the south...Just maybe...

In order for them to head north then the 22nd CA would have to be slowed up a bit...

[Dog 6]

I like your idea schnickelfritz. in my games the 5th is alive and well off. btw just ignore to leg he's a cannon nut case.

[Legbreaker]

Excuse me!?

Anyone is free to do what they like if they can justify it.

[Snake Eyes]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Excuse me!?

Anyone is free to do what they like if they can justify it.

I think you'll find the justification part to be entirely optional.

Excused.

[Legbreaker]

What I mean by justify is present a logical back story or alternate chain of events for it such as Web has done admirably with his Thunder Empire.

No point simply stating something like the USS Enterprise is still floating and in 100% working order when virtually every other ship in the world is either on the bottom, or trashed from years of combat without also saying it's in such mint condition because it was pulled into an alternate universe at the beginning of the war and then spat back out again.
Or perhaps something a little more believable....

[Targan]

A while back on this forum there was some bad blood relating (in part) to a perception that non-canonical, member-generated content was somehow less valid because it did not conform to canon. Obviously there were other points of difference too but that was one of the main ones. It was made very clear at the time that discriminatory bias against non-canonical works was unacceptable on this forum.

It works the other way too. Just because a member points out differences between canon and a postulated scenario doesn't mean its ok for others to make derogatory comments in response. Personally, I like seeing suggested scenarios critiqued by other members, both pro-canon and freestyle. As long as the critiquing is in the form of constructive criticism or delivered in good spirit and with some logic behind it I think it should be accepted with good grace by all.

That is my hope anyway.

schnickelfritz, the scenario you postulate is an interesting one. If you flesh out the ideas in future posts I for one will be reading them.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

No point simply stating something like the USS Enterprise is still floating and in 100% working order when virtually every other ship in the world is either on the bottom, or trashed from years of combat without also saying it's in such mint condition because it was pulled into an alternate universe at the beginning of the war and then spat back out again.

LOL...I thought that was the USS Nimitz...

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

I like your idea schnickelfritz. in my games the 5th is alive and well off. btw just ignore to leg he's a cannon nut case.

Legbreaker is not the only one to find this remark a little irritating. I think it could have been phrased in a far better manner, this way it just comes across as insulting.

[Legbreaker]

What a lot of people tend to forget is that a LOT of the unit information in the books is post offensive i.e. after they've been through the wringer in the Summer of 2000.

Prior to Summer the situation was very different on the whole.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

What a lot of people tend to forget is that a LOT of the unit information in the books is post offensive i.e. after they've been through the wringer in the Summer of 2000.

Prior to Summer the situation was very different on the whole.

Yes if people take time to compare the notes from the information out of the box set in V1 and the information given later in Source books, would tend to give that idea to people. Especially since only few unit actually grew, while other were heavily decimated, besides the 5th and 8th Mechanized Division. While some units had detachments else where like the troop of the 116th ACR that ended up in southern Poland...

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Legbreaker is not the only one to find this remark a little irritating. I think it could have been phrased in a far better manner, this way it just comes across as insulting.

I would totally agree it could of been put more tactfully, but considering all things of the past. *Shrug*

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

...a cannon nut case.

If this some sort of all-natural canister round?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

If this some sort of all-natural canister round?

... a-cashew, a-cashew, we all fall down!

[Abbott Shaull]

Remember that the 4th Guard Tank Army was running on Gasoline, but remember unless they trucked it wall with them on their movement, it had probably been stages along their route of march for what some suspect to be their attack into Southern Germany. The normal route probably didn't call for cache of supplies in Central Poland.

I do see the 3rd Shock Army and the Frontal HQ nearby being one of the last supplies caches in the Legnica and Wraclaw regions and part of the reason why these the 3rd Shock Army and it component units were unwilling to move much. Especially if they had KGB Officers over watching these units with orders to protect the fuel dumps at all cost....

[schnickelfritz]

What I got from the V1 scenario was that the 124th MRD was caught in transit by 3-70 Armor and 3-10 Infantry backed by 6 155mm of 2-19 or 2-21 Field Artillery. What I got from the encounter is that the bulk of the effective combat power of the 124th (i.e. the bulk of its AFV's) were destroyed in the initial exchange or the subsequent counterattack on 3-70's positions. My read was that the bulk of the Soviet armor passed by (due to timing) or was allowed to pass by (due to discipline). From what I've studied I get that in the command, main combat, and most of the supply elements of the 124th were totally shattered, causing the bulk of the survivors to desert, flee in total panic, loot, etc., and that it would be some time before it represented anything akin to a cohesive unit.

With that said, I honestly don't get the feel that there were supply dumps of any magnitude west of the Warta and north of the Kalisz-Sieradz road.

Looking back at my material, narrative, and maps, I think that with a little luck and fire discipline (the tankers of 3-70 are by now seasoned veterans and most likely alive because they're good at what they do), you could assume that at least anough of the tankers carrying fuel/water within the 124th's column could survive. If 3-10 Infantry can secure the far side of the road, you can set upon anything that isn't actively exploding like a plague of locusts. You're a long way from home, if you had a chance to get some fuel and water from your enemy, wouldn't you? hell, I'd pick clean anything of everything. When you have no chance of regular supply, I assume anyone in a similar situation would.

My guess is that the men of 3-70 had a bit of time to see what was below them on the road. After 4 years of seeing Russian trucks and markings, my guess at least some of them knew what Water and Fuel vehicles (be they tankers or trucks hauling jerry cans) are marked like.

The vehicles in the task force that engaged the 124th were all low on fuel, which means to me that conversion to gasoline would be as simple as activating the proper control at the driver's station and pumping in enough to get you by.

Excess captured or salvaged (siphoned/pumped or pulled from those handy barrels on the back of Soviet tanks) could be forwarded back to help other units escape.

What I don't quite get is the 21st MRD seemed to either be very lucky or have a much better idea where the 5th was....more so than the others, especially the 124th. They sure seemed to just drive into it blind.

That's all I've got for now...time to put the girls down for bed.

Thanks,
Dave