Survival of the US 5th ID (M)

[Legbreaker]

What I mean by justify is present a logical back story or alternate chain of events for it such as Web has done admirably with his Thunder Empire.

No point simply stating something like the USS Enterprise is still floating and in 100% working order when virtually every other ship in the world is either on the bottom, or trashed from years of combat without also saying it's in such mint condition because it was pulled into an alternate universe at the beginning of the war and then spat back out again.
Or perhaps something a little more believable....

[Targan]

A while back on this forum there was some bad blood relating (in part) to a perception that non-canonical, member-generated content was somehow less valid because it did not conform to canon. Obviously there were other points of difference too but that was one of the main ones. It was made very clear at the time that discriminatory bias against non-canonical works was unacceptable on this forum.

It works the other way too. Just because a member points out differences between canon and a postulated scenario doesn't mean its ok for others to make derogatory comments in response. Personally, I like seeing suggested scenarios critiqued by other members, both pro-canon and freestyle. As long as the critiquing is in the form of constructive criticism or delivered in good spirit and with some logic behind it I think it should be accepted with good grace by all.

That is my hope anyway.

schnickelfritz, the scenario you postulate is an interesting one. If you flesh out the ideas in future posts I for one will be reading them.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Targan

schnickelfritz, the scenario you postulate is an interesting one. If you flesh out the ideas in future posts I for one will be reading them.

As will I. It's a very interesting idea, although I'm yet to be convinced on the survival of the 5th not unbalancing the entire late 2000 scenario. Definitely want to see your thoughts on that and perhaps help flesh it out a bit.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

No point simply stating something like the USS Enterprise is still floating and in 100% working order when virtually every other ship in the world is either on the bottom, or trashed from years of combat without also saying it's in such mint condition because it was pulled into an alternate universe at the beginning of the war and then spat back out again.

LOL...I thought that was the USS Nimitz...

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

LOL...I thought that was the USS Nimitz...

LMAO
You know, I actually thought of using the Nimitz as the example!

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

LOL...I thought that was the USS Nimitz...

Classic film.

[HorseSoldier]

Has anyone out there tinkered with the V1 Kalisz scenario where the 5th Division does NOT get destroyed?

I don't see much point, and don't see it being very plausible for the situation the division finds itself in during the 2000 offensive. I don't see the "we got their plans" counterfactual being adequate to fix the situation -- the point of departure would have to be a couple orders of magnitude more significant. Like no POL from Ploesti for the Soviet forces, otherwise 5th ID(M) gets overrun no matter how you slice it for the force mix and mobility differential. Or significantly more modest aims for the NATO offensive that don't put 5th ID swinging out there in the wind in the first place.

I think the ideas you are looking at, scenario-wise would work better for 8th ID or 2nd MarDiv than 5th ID, the demise of which is sort of a core plot point in the game.

[Grimace]

While the idea of having the 5th survive the battle of Kalisz isn't necessarily a bad one, the whole idea makes me wonder: Why would you want it to survive?

Really, people make changes to the game because they have some idea for what they're wanting to do. I know the idea came from the Eastern European sourcebook, but the whole thing boils down to "What are you going to do with the 5th Infantry Division?"

Realizing that allowing the 5th ID to survive mostly intact invalidates a massive amount of publicized work and gets rid of the whole "you're on your own" bit, it would certainly help to have a grand amount of adventures and overall goal of keeping the 5th in working order? Also realize that you're going to have a completely different make-up of Soviet forces in the area. They wouldn't have just wiped out a division, losing a portion of their forces in the process and generally be in the spririts of winning the battle. Instead, the Soviets would be on a whole different level of alertness. Any soldiers attempting any sort of operations in Soviet areas would have a lot more difficulty. Additionally, the Soviets would likely be using their gasoline equipped vehicles to encircle and cut off the 5th from any support.

So, as others have suggested, maybe using another unit, such as the 8th or the 2nd Marines would facilitate the same sorts of adventures you might have and not toss out pretty much every published adventure idea in Europe.

Also, if you're looking for more stand-up fights instead of 6 people against the world, you might think of putting the PCs in some place the Persian Gulf where the combat forces are still in more respectable fighting order. Or, make up your own situation where you can have some stand-up fights rather than E&E all the time. I did that with some PCs that made it to Cyprus and found the Greeks, Turks and British still very much in active combat operations on the island.
Or just run a campaign or adventure set DURING the war so you can really get the feel for how equipped troops could really handle things that way the loss of the 5th has that much more of an impact later on.

So while I'm not saying your idea is bad, I just think it's going to result in a whole lot of wasted information from published material, and a whole lot of work to rewrite everything so that it fits with the survival of the 5th. If you're up for all of that work, then great! If not, though, you might consider just using another unit.

[schnickelfritz]

Thanks to all for their thoughts. I need to find the time to go back through my escape narrative and make sure it still makes sense. At one point I wrote it first person, then tried to make it more of a true narrative in the Red Storm Rising mold. I have one PC with Word and no internet and one with internet but no Word And no time/energy at night anymore.

What I was working on was a scenario where the bulk of 1st and 2nd Brigades were able to hastily escape the encirclement by forming two pncers, if you will. I thought that one brigade could bypass the 21st MRD to the West by Southeast (essentially skirting the 21st's left flank) and the other by driving through the shattered 124th along the Sieradz-Kalisz road, then driving South then Southeast towards Czestochowa. Forgive me for not having it handy...what I have written and my pile o' T2K is upstairs and the Wife is trying to get my little girls to sleep.

The key was to shatter the 124th (pretty much done) and pin the 21st in place with artillery. The impression I got from the canon scenario was the 21st had a pretty good idea where the 5th was. If you could turn the tables, you could use that to your advantage.

The breakout would be fueled (literally) by gasoline captured from the 124th's supply train and salvaged from their wrecked vehicles. For this I drew upon B troop/116th ACR and their adventures as outlined in the Black Madonna. After exiting the kill zone, they could transition back to their limited stock of alcohol fuels. Perhaps some convoys/dumps would be raided en route, providing them additional stocks of fuel and/or components to replace their now lost divisional stills (assumed to be large stills).

Without the time to brew large quantities of alcohol before winter and without wanting to burn the remainder of their captured gasoline without a good idea that they wouldn't just blunder into more Ivans that NATO intelligence failed to detect, they attempt to set up a defensive perimeter in the Czestochowa area and affect what repairs/recouperation they can and wait out the winter.

As far as still wanting to have small e&e style actions, this would be a messy, hasty, confused breakout. The phrase "all elbows and a-holes" comes to mind (pardon my French). Some portions of the divisional rear area and remnants of the 256th Brigade would still be cut off. If you want to be part of that, that's great.

If you're already captured and sitting on your helmet in some makeshift POW camp, perhaps there is hope we might come get you. Maybe.

Remember, I'm just one part time T2K enthusiast...no one needs to rewrite any of the "Destroyed 5th ID canon stuff" on account of me. That's the beauty of it all.

As far as doing a RDF Sourcebook campaign in CENTCOM...it's a good idea, but I like Europe and Poland in particular. In a way I feel the desire to set things right after the part that the 5th ID played in the destruction of the area not once but twice throughout the Twilight War.

The idea of doing a USMC or 8th ID campaign is good too....I admit I never thought of it, but that's probably due to my attachment to the 5th.

Part of this is also because I was unable to get a pdf copy of the Eastern Europe Sourcebook and some of the Challenge isuues that were missing links until well after I started concrete work on a narrative.

There's a lot of repairs to be made, supply/harrassment raids to be conducted, POW's to liberate, convoys to guard (trading captured Soviet vehicles to whoever has food...most likely Krakow, but anyone will do), returning to the battlefields for salvage, and with winter coming, marauders to fight. The 5th would be in a bit of a catch-22...too big to stay in one place due to the amount of food it would consume, but you don't want to get too spread out, either.

The heavy weapons of the 5th are all short on ammo, just like those of the 8th ID. Your M1A1 may be pretty much intact, but your radio aerial may be shot away. No fear, that one in your platoon that took a suspension kill several KM back...in the killing ground...still has a good spare! Who's up to volunteer?!

And you still only have 20 or 30 rounds left for the main gun. You won't be getting anymore anytime soon, so you better make 'em last!

With their supply lines gutted both during and after the breakout, I see the 4th GTA coming apart , with some units beginning the trek home in spring of 2001. Those will greate band of deserters and marauders that will be problems for months, if not years to come. I think you see this in Going Home, the Black Madionna, and White Eagle.

And thanks to whoever mentioned the Nimitz and an alternate universe...now I have the urge to go find "The Final Countdown" on DVD. Frack.

Thanks-
Dave

[Legbreaker]

The last couple of days of the 5th were chaotic to say the least with it seems, nobody getting anywhere near enough sleep and far too much to do.
It doesn't seem to me as if there'd be near enough time to convert vehicles to captured fuel, and then back again, even if enough fuel was captured.
Also, would the 124th really have had their fuel reserves traveling up front where the combat was to take place?