Tactics skill

[Legbreaker]

There is a danger though with Tactics skill that the GM is a bit, well, inept themselves.

But, as long as everyone is having fun....

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Traveller: The New Era had a tactics skill from what I remember. I don't think that it's a bad thing to have in the game, specifically for all the reasons previously mentioned.

I also think it gives the Referee a way to make life a little easier on the PCs (without them really knowing about it) if things are likely to go really bad. For example, the Ref can roll the Tactics skill as a hidden roll and state that the PC with the skill realizes that 'Plan A' is not particularly good and 'Plan B' is a better option. The players see it as a successful use of a skill and not the Ref giving them a lucky break and in that way, it doesn't feel to them as though the Referee is taking it easy on them, they feel as though they've earned the 'good luck' through the use of their own abilities.
Yeah it's deceptive but it's purpose is to stop the PCs being killed off unnecessarily and GMs have been doing that sort of thing forever so that their players keep enjoying the game and enjoying the game is, after all, what it's all about.

[Legbreaker]

I've spent a bit more time thinking about this and feel that Tactics should be a skill learnt just like any other - ie not given to characters for free based on military or combat experience.
This opinion has come about because I've personally seen some really boneheaded decisions made by people with 20+ years of experience, while others who have actually spend some time and effort (and obviously had the interest) to study the subject, whether formally (military lessons) or even extensive reading of military history, tend towards better tactical judgement.

Therefore, and to repeat my earlier comments, Tactics skill should probably be under Education and available in 2.x as an NCO or combat branch Officer skill, or a Secondary Activity (military history enthusiast/reenactment).

[helbent4]

Group,

I think a good way of running Tactics would be a bonus to Initiative (if using Last Battle/First Clash, Rivering/Mega-combat/Miniatures rules), CUF/Init. for v1/v2/v2.2 rules, per Paul's suggestion.

Additionally, it would be nice for the GM to give some sort of tactical insight in a natural manner. Players can be naturally adverse to accepting such advice if it conflicts with what they think is best.

Instead of the GM simply telling the players the "best" course by some means, take it or leave it, a Tactics roll of some kind might instead allow insight into the enemy or opposing force. Either physical dispositions, numbers, armaments, locations, even goals or weaknesses. That way it's still up to the players to decide the best course, without the perception of having it spoon-fed to them.

Tony

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by helbent4

...a Tactics roll of some kind might instead allow insight into the enemy or opposing force. Either physical dispositions, numbers, armaments, locations, even goals or weaknesses.

I think that is the best course to follow in almost all situations. Tactics isn't just about knowing a large rock is a better bullet shield than a plywood wall, it includes (in my mind) effective recce, applying gathered intel properly, etc.

Hmm, could even have subskills - Tactics: gridiron, Tactics: icehockey, Tactics: chess, etc

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

There is a danger though with Tactics skill that the GM is a bit, well, inept themselves.

But, as long as everyone is having fun....

Sort of like the munchkin GM at a convention assuring everyone in the group that a Claymore will take out a T-64? And no, I'm not talking about a M-18A1! His theory was that a claymore could be shoved into the gap inbetween the turret and the hull and be used to kill the crew....after wiping the tears from my eyes after that one, I went and played D&D!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Sort of like the munchkin GM at a convention assuring everyone in the group that a Claymore will take out a T-64? And no, I'm not talking about a M-18A1! His theory was that a claymore could be shoved into the gap inbetween the turret and the hull and be used to kill the crew....after wiping the tears from my eyes after that one, I went and played D&D!

I'm speechless but I wish I'd been there to see that!

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I'm speechless but I wish I'd been there to see that!

I think the table still has a imprint of my jaw where it hit!

But for the rest of the con, the jokes about antitank weapons were flying fast...

I think the M-242 Assault Catapult had lots of possibilities!

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Sort of like the munchkin GM at a convention assuring everyone in the group that a Claymore will take out a T-64? And no, I'm not talking about a M-18A1! His theory was that a claymore could be shoved into the gap inbetween the turret and the hull and be used to kill the crew....after wiping the tears from my eyes after that one, I went and played D&D!

My god. Sounds like the know it all I alluded to back when I joined: His latest pronouncement from his lair is that the Air Force launched two tomahawks from a cessna on 9/11, claims he saw video on YouTube, but the government took it down to hide the secret, and oh, the real reason for the deficit? All the pay offs to the folks of NYC to say they didn't see what happened and to tell the cover story.

[headquarters]

most if not all players have seen enough good and/or bad action movies to know a thing or two about tactics. (for gaming purposes at least)

Many have read alot about it and gotten tons of info from the net about it. In my mind the player who wishes to make a character with 20 years military experience but who has no clue in RL must take his chances and learn fast in game - or "die".

( Please note the clear distinction between RL & in game folks )

Of course I will allow a few questions to help the man on his way - just as I wouldnt stop two players sitting at the gaming table starting discussing what end of the hydrospanners should be used to create maximum impact on the conductor grease dispenser in the main cortex - when one of their two characters is about to do a task roll based on a high level in computers to fix some software problem on a nuclear warhead - subjects I have rudimentary and superstitious knowledge about in RL myself.

But -
in game you have the advantage of being able to ponder the tactical map from your vantage point high above the beercan, far removed from the dust and grime,smell of fear and shockingly loud clash of arms - that your poor tin mini-grunts go through down there on the paper sheet in game. The player doesnt feel the stress and the fear and the choking panic of confusion that the miniatures that are actually in rpg combat go through. Thus he can cooly calculate and deploy as he sees fit. He doesnt get the taste of blood in his mouth from running till the blood pounds in your ears or scraping his knuckles and elbows bloody and raw when crawling over shingle and debris on the advance or the retreat-nor will he have to deal with the agonizing screams of pain and fear of the minis fighting and dying all around his own mini down there on the slightly nacho dip stained battle map. He will not soil his pants in fear as projectiles whizz overhead and death comes eye to eye - although a few beer stains might be in the future.

The player has got it good. So - he has chosen to play a character that he hasnt got a CHANCE to actually roleplay you say? Not even a sliver of a hope of pretending to be on top of the situation? Hasent seen a single war movie that has any hint of realistic firing and manouvering in it?

Well, he shouldnt have bloody well staked out a path to the mother of all skill points munchkin special forces character then should he?

But the gm must be merciful. And just. And justice should be swift - but not abrupt. So a session or two with a list of recommended reading and watching inbetween and some commitment from the player and he should be good to go - not the old salt that everyone depends on to get them home perhaps...

so - no- no tactics skill in our games, but any player may ask "in my PCs experience of 12 years as an NCO..." at least once or twice up to the second or third session since rolling up


. Assuming the PC lives that long.

I would like to add on a diplomatic note that - everyone knows what his own game needs better than the GM you discuss it with on line. A tactics skill you say ? Might be a good idea.

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by headquarters

But -
in game you have the advantage of being able to ponder the tactical map from your vantage point high above the beercan, far removed from the dust and grime,smell of fear and shockingly loud clash of arms - that your poor tin mini-grunts go through down there on the paper sheet in game. The player doesnt feel the stress and the fear and the choking panic of confusion that the miniatures that are actually in rpg combat go through. Thus he can cooly calculate and deploy as he sees fit. He doesnt get the taste of blood in his mouth from running till the blood pounds in your ears or scraping his knuckles and elbows bloody and raw when crawling over shingle and debris on the advance or the retreat-nor will he have to deal with the agonizing screams of pain and fear of the minis fighting and dying all around his own mini down there on the slightly nacho dip stained battle map. He will not soil his pants in fear as projectiles whizz overhead and death comes eye to eye - although a few beer stains might be in the future.

[...]

Well, he shouldnt have bloody well staked out a path to the mother of all skill points munchkin special forces character then should he?

But the gm must be merciful. And just. And justice should be swift - but not abrupt. So a session or two with a list of recommended reading and watching inbetween and some commitment from the player and he should be good to go - not the old salt that everyone depends on to get them home perhaps...

Wow - So, the minis are quite busy on your battleground, are they?

That's the right spirit, son

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by B.T.

Wow - So, the minis are quite busy on your battleground, are they?

That's the right spirit, son

Yeah - they are a hard tested lot - but morale is high

I like the minis from Rebel minis

http://www.rebelminis.com/15mm-gunme...s-punks-e.html

I have bought some 15 mms from them and was well pleased - even got a deal on a paintjob - which really makes all the difference.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

My god. Sounds like the know it all I alluded to back when I joined: His latest pronouncement from his lair is that the Air Force launched two tomahawks from a cessna on 9/11, claims he saw video on YouTube, but the government took it down to hide the secret, and oh, the real reason for the deficit? All the pay offs to the folks of NYC to say they didn't see what happened and to tell the cover story.

I've heard a lot of 9-11 conspiracy theories, but that one...I don't know what to say...

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I've heard a lot of 9-11 conspiracy theories, but that one...I don't know what to say...

Maybe its me, but these theories just get more and more silly. Believe me, I've worked for the government as a shooter and as a bean-counter for almost thirty years now...and no branch of the government could pull off such an operation!!! Too many back-stabbers, power players, ass-kissers and just-plain-in-general-morons to pull it off!

[HorseSoldier]

+1. Our government is profoundly incapable of maintaining secrets effectively. The only place where it does so is in the imagination of conspiracy theorists.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

+1. Our government is profoundly incapable of maintaining secrets effectively. The only place where it does so is in the imagination of conspiracy theorists.

And the problem with the theorists is that they are just like cockroaches....they multiply every time you nail one.

Ah well, its time to put on the ole black suit and sunglasses, climb aboard my midnight black totally silent helicopter, go cut up a few head of cattle with a laser for no particular reason and then join up with some of my CIA comrades and plot the overthrow of Western Civilization!

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

My god. Sounds like the know it all I alluded to back when I joined: His latest pronouncement from his lair is that the Air Force launched two tomahawks from a cessna on 9/11, claims he saw video on YouTube, but the government took it down to hide the secret, and oh, the real reason for the deficit? All the pay offs to the folks of NYC to say they didn't see what happened and to tell the cover story.

Your friend is waaaaayyyy behind the curve! It was done by a wet-ops Special Forces Team that planted C-4 and Thermite throughout the towers. And the reason, so that Bush W could get oil cheap for his cronies....