Germany in T2K

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The G36 would never have been developed, it's a product of the end of the Cold War when Heckler & Koch were able to share information/techniques/designs with Royal Ordnance when RO bought HK. It uses design influences from the AR-18, influences which only came about due to HK's association with RO.
Without that specific event happening, the G36 would never have been thought of let alone developed and HK would have probably pushed for making the G41 it's main 5.56mm rifle.

[HorseSoldier]

That's why I have always played the first edition timeline with the Federal Republic of Germany and German Democratic Republic NOT unifying. Not only due to the logistical nightmares that would have come from such an action during wartime or that over the nearly fifty year cultural differences that had developed between the East & West Germans... but in an effort to keep the Soviets from using the 'Unified Germany = Imperialists Invaders' propaganda in the other Warsaw Pact states.

To each their own and all, but I personally have always found the way the Twilight War kicked off to be one of the cooler aspects of the Twilight War setting, since it makes for a much more gray and murky setting, morally speaking. Not just in terms of Germany reunification by force being murky in and of itself, but that most of NATO jumps on board a NATO initiated war against the Soviets and rest of the Warsaw Pact. Soviet propaganda will have a pretty big kernel of truth in it that it's fighting a defensive war, and the specter of German militarism, however much it's not a one for one stand in for 1939, does a lot to explain how and why the Poles and Czechoslovaks stay on board on the Soviet side of things.

But also as the war rolled on, the East Germans started to work on the development of their own military hardware with the help of their Western Brothers... such as the state owned weapons arsenals partnering up with the West German manufacturers as H&K to produce replacements for the AK-47 and AK-74.

Thus you could have seen the H&K G36 being developed... but as a replacement for the dwindling numbers of the AK family of weapons in the East German arsenal.

There's not going to be time to replace the NVA's small arms inventory before the nukes fly, not with the war going full tilt. I'd expect that all small arms factories on both sides of the former border are going triple shift turning out G41s, G11s, and MPiK-74s. Best case scenario would be a crash program to convert the 74s to 5.56mm, which would be a pretty easy conversion. (And even with that, I could still see the reunified Germans bringing in boatloads of M16s and C7s from the US and Canada to at least get a standardized caliber on the books.)

But, end of the day, the reunified Germany is just handed a logistical nightmare. I think they're more interesting playing that ball where it lies, too, rather than giving them a mulligan

Thus you could have seen the H&K G36 being developed... but as a replacement for the dwindling numbers of the AK family of weapons in the East German arsenal.

I agree with the other post that G36 just never exists -- HK had no experience with, or apparently interest in, the AR-18 they borrowed heavily from on the G36 before they did the L85 upgrade for the UK, which gets into counterfactual stuff for the Twilight War timeline.

The other thing is that disruption of petroleum production and worldwide commerce will be a show stopper for production of something like the G36. Germany could be building MPiK-74s even circa 2000, with the only thing that would need serious modification being the substitution of wood for plastic furniture.

[Abbott Shaull]

Honestly, I can see in v1 that the G11 production would soon be halted so as to produce more G41s to standardize rounds for the Germans and her NATO allies.

Also the former East German units will continue with their former Pact weapon and limited production would continue on to support these units.

Honestly one of the major problems with the entire war is that the Pact went against their tradition of taking weaken units and merging them. Or the fact that NATO units would have attachments and detachments to help each other. Granted during late 1998 and into the winter 1999-2000 as many units would of tried to be returned to their parent when possible, but there would still be several of them where moving the sub-units would of been more costly than leaving them with whatever unit they had ended up with. Even during the 2000 Offensive within the 3rd German Army there would of been several cross-attachments with each of the Corps and even III German Corps and IX US Corps may have done some of this between them for the current offensive.

[Legbreaker]

Why? The G11 in the V1 timeline was the main service rifle for the West Germans. The G41 was the supporting services rifle. Both production lines would have been in place and operating concurrently.

Standardisation was clearly NOT a priority for the Germans otherwise they wouldn't have even begun to consider the G11 and it's caseless ammo. Given that it was set to enter service in 1990-91, the Germans would have had 4-5 years to build up a war stockpile of ammo, plus whatever else they produced once production was ramped up in advance of hostilities. Until the production facilities were destroyed, probably by nukes in late 97 (although likely attacked conventionally numerous times prior to that), there seems little need for the Germans, with their separate logistical train to the US, British, etc, to conform.

Also, the G11 was developed because a soldier could carry more than twice the ammo as an M16 armed man for the same weight, had better accuracy, and was much more controllable - why throw that all away for the ability to share magazines with soldiers who are operating in a completely different area?

I agree that the East Germans would continue to use their pre-unification equipment (although perhaps with new uniforms and vehicle markings) - there's little doubt that the west would be totally unable to re-equip them all in just a few weeks or months (depending on the version timeline).

Granted it may not have been Pact doctrine to not combine depleted units, but that's the situation we're faced with in the game. To me it's quite simple to explain it - the units were in constant action in the beginning, under pressure all the time. The opportunity simply wasn't there to withdraw units form the line and reorganise them in any significant way. Later in the war, the logistical ability to shift large numbers of troops and equipment around had disappeared.

[Targan]

I agree with pretty much all of Leg's points above. In my campaigns G11s have been available for characters without too much trouble but ammo was very scarce.

[Legbreaker]

In the V1 timeline, ammo availability seems to be the only reason anyone wouldn't be using a G11. When you look at it, it's a brilliant weapon.

In V2, which mirrors reality a bit closer in the early years, the G11 is probably still available (roughly 1,000 were produced IRL with some finding their way into the military). Chances are though that you'd either have to be very lucky to find one, or be in an elite unit (and even then they'd be scarce). On the other hand, an entire unit in the rear might be equipped with them - ammo consumption being nowhere near that of a combat unit, some individuals may even still have a few rounds they were issued with at the beginning of the war!.

[B.T.]

Leg: I'm surprised. Why do you think, the G11 would be scarce even in German service?

In my campaign, I use the G11 as the standard firearm of German combat troops (In 1996 it was, most soldiers in 2000 once had a G11 but try to pick up weapons that work with an easier to find/trade ammo.). The other German troops are equipped with G3 or G41. Some units of the former NVA and western soldiers, who captured lots of them, use AKs.

I'm not sure, where your info stems from. Something I've overlooked all these years?