Germany in T2K

[Abbott Shaull]

Honestly, I can see in v1 that the G11 production would soon be halted so as to produce more G41s to standardize rounds for the Germans and her NATO allies.

Also the former East German units will continue with their former Pact weapon and limited production would continue on to support these units.

Honestly one of the major problems with the entire war is that the Pact went against their tradition of taking weaken units and merging them. Or the fact that NATO units would have attachments and detachments to help each other. Granted during late 1998 and into the winter 1999-2000 as many units would of tried to be returned to their parent when possible, but there would still be several of them where moving the sub-units would of been more costly than leaving them with whatever unit they had ended up with. Even during the 2000 Offensive within the 3rd German Army there would of been several cross-attachments with each of the Corps and even III German Corps and IX US Corps may have done some of this between them for the current offensive.

[Legbreaker]

Why? The G11 in the V1 timeline was the main service rifle for the West Germans. The G41 was the supporting services rifle. Both production lines would have been in place and operating concurrently.

Standardisation was clearly NOT a priority for the Germans otherwise they wouldn't have even begun to consider the G11 and it's caseless ammo. Given that it was set to enter service in 1990-91, the Germans would have had 4-5 years to build up a war stockpile of ammo, plus whatever else they produced once production was ramped up in advance of hostilities. Until the production facilities were destroyed, probably by nukes in late 97 (although likely attacked conventionally numerous times prior to that), there seems little need for the Germans, with their separate logistical train to the US, British, etc, to conform.

Also, the G11 was developed because a soldier could carry more than twice the ammo as an M16 armed man for the same weight, had better accuracy, and was much more controllable - why throw that all away for the ability to share magazines with soldiers who are operating in a completely different area?

I agree that the East Germans would continue to use their pre-unification equipment (although perhaps with new uniforms and vehicle markings) - there's little doubt that the west would be totally unable to re-equip them all in just a few weeks or months (depending on the version timeline).

Granted it may not have been Pact doctrine to not combine depleted units, but that's the situation we're faced with in the game. To me it's quite simple to explain it - the units were in constant action in the beginning, under pressure all the time. The opportunity simply wasn't there to withdraw units form the line and reorganise them in any significant way. Later in the war, the logistical ability to shift large numbers of troops and equipment around had disappeared.

[Targan]

I agree with pretty much all of Leg's points above. In my campaigns G11s have been available for characters without too much trouble but ammo was very scarce.

[Legbreaker]

In the V1 timeline, ammo availability seems to be the only reason anyone wouldn't be using a G11. When you look at it, it's a brilliant weapon.

In V2, which mirrors reality a bit closer in the early years, the G11 is probably still available (roughly 1,000 were produced IRL with some finding their way into the military). Chances are though that you'd either have to be very lucky to find one, or be in an elite unit (and even then they'd be scarce). On the other hand, an entire unit in the rear might be equipped with them - ammo consumption being nowhere near that of a combat unit, some individuals may even still have a few rounds they were issued with at the beginning of the war!.

[B.T.]

Leg: I'm surprised. Why do you think, the G11 would be scarce even in German service?

In my campaign, I use the G11 as the standard firearm of German combat troops (In 1996 it was, most soldiers in 2000 once had a G11 but try to pick up weapons that work with an easier to find/trade ammo.). The other German troops are equipped with G3 or G41. Some units of the former NVA and western soldiers, who captured lots of them, use AKs.

I'm not sure, where your info stems from. Something I've overlooked all these years?

[Rainbow Six]

Purely from a V1 perspective, I totally agree with those that think that G11's themselves might be relatively easy to find but the ammunition will be very rare. I think the original V1 equipment list states that is the case.

Hence I would think most troops armed with G11's would have discarded them (at worst) or cached them (at best) in favour of weapons they can easily get ammo for.

[Legbreaker]

I think the G11 would be scarce in V2.x simply because reunification actually happened as in reality. The G11 in the world as we know it only had an extremely limited run of about 1,000.
With East Germany returning to the fold as it does in 2.x, the same issues would have arisen as they have IRL.

In V1 though I'm all for the G11 to have seen widespread issue, virtually replacing the G3 as was intended prior to 1989. In V1, Germany didn't reunify until the beginning of the war in 1996 which allows more than enough time and money to be spent on rearming the west with it. The only issue in V1 reducing the number of G11's in use is the availability of ammunition.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I think the G11 would be scarce in V2.x simply because reunification actually happened as in reality. The G11 in the world as we know it only had an extremely limited run of about 1,000.
With East Germany returning to the fold as it does in 2.x, the same issues would have arisen as they have IRL.

In V1 though I'm all for the G11 to have seen widespread issue, virtually replacing the G3 as was intended prior to 1989. In V1, Germany didn't reunify until the beginning of the war in 1996 which allows more than enough time and money to be spent on rearming the west with it. The only issue in V1 reducing the number of G11's in use is the availability of ammunition.

Which one has to remember is part of the sticky points with NATO. They have tried to more or less to get everyone using the same calibre and types of rounds. When you are the only one using the one type of rounds, not many others can help you with your logistical problem of arming troops.

That and throw into real life as Poland and other Eastern Europe nations were absorbed into NATO and some before switch their rounds from the former Pact standard to NATO standard fairly quickly with all things considered. In many case the equipment inherited by the Germany Army from East Germany went on to help supply several Eastern Europe neighbors. Even the small arms were sold off relatively quickly to help make for efforts to get their forces using the same equipment. Of course, the reduction of forces helped out here too.