US Police Armored Vehicles

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

The New Jersey is not in service anymore...so how about an AC-130 instead?

Think about the press! Anyone remember when the Philadelphia PD dropped a bomb (just a package of explosives, really) on the apartment building where the radical group MOVES was holed up? The police got eviscerated in the press for months.

Yeah so do the Gangs. They realize as well as most local/State governments that there are limits that people are willing to accept. The general population don't want to feel as if they live in a police state. The local Law Enforcement knows that for most things they can handle, and many try not to think about the what if the sh!t hit the fan type stuff. They know it there, but as long as it doesn't happen on my beat they try not to dwell on it.

One thing about that one failed bank robbery, with the two bank robbers wearing the home-made bullet proof armor and how ill prepared local law enforcement was for it drove home a point. It part of the reason why many local police agency have went out of the way to better prepare their officers and SWAT teams. With some going so far as arming their some regular patrol officer with 5.56mm weapons instead of riot guns.

[Panther Al]

Question was asked in seriousness, and I appreciate the responses. The one question that comes to mind from what I have read, is why should we assume that the gangs are willing to play by the unwritten rules?

But not just the gangs either, there are many groups that if they could get the firepower would use it.

Yes, the ANG will be called out, and the fact that a *lot* of Iraq vets are on the beat these days will help, but what of the long term effects?

[pmulcahy11b]

In T2K, a lot of major cities will become highly factionalized ans split along gang neighborhoods. With the dearth of police available, their conflicts would intensify -- except possibly in the Southwest, where they might find themselves as strange bedfellows in resistance to Mexican and Soviet forces -- or collaborators.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Question was asked in seriousness, and I appreciate the responses. The one question that comes to mind from what I have read, is why should we assume that the gangs are willing to play by the unwritten rules?

It would cut into their other profits in other interests they oversea. I mean if they went around using their automatic weapons and other firepower they have at will, they will come under the microscope from the people they are supposedly trying to help and recruit.

[cavtroop]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Yes, the ANG will be called out, and the fact that a *lot* of Iraq vets are on the beat these days will help, but what of the long term effects?

And a *lot* of gang-bangers have Iraq/AFG experience too.

lets hope it never comes to this.

[Panther Al]

When I was a recruiter they was big on trying to keep the bangers out. But what I saw while on line units was those efforts was a failure.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Question was asked in seriousness, and I appreciate the responses. The one question that comes to mind from what I have read, is why should we assume that the gangs are willing to play by the unwritten rules?

But not just the gangs either, there are many groups that if they could get the firepower would use it.

Yes, the ANG will be called out, and the fact that a *lot* of Iraq vets are on the beat these days will help, but what of the long term effects?

Gang bangers, at least the sucessful ones, would realize that there are certain limits that cannot be crossed. They are often buried deep in the production and distribution of illegal drugs, and you can't sell when everyone is busy using AKs on everything moving. This is part of the reason that the gang wars tend to be short, but bloody affairs, sure you have to earn your street cred, but you are also out there trying to control terriority and sell your product.

The biggest problem would be the smaller gangs, trying to cut out their own territory and get their piece of the pie, then it would become a race as to who gets them first, the larger established gangs or LEA.

While the initial thread is about gangers, I think the ones most likely to go full-auto off the deep end would be the various "militias" around the country. Especially after nukes started popping and fed/state/local government started breaking down. A lot of these groups are counting on this so that they can start their own countries ala New America...this may be the largest according to GDW...but they certainly wouldn't be the only ones.

[HorseSoldier]

Street gangs (US and otherwise) get away with what the system lets them get away with. In Brazilian cities, drug gangs maintain fortified no-go zones and when the police roll into those areas they do company and battalion level sweeps and expect to fight for ground to do it. In the US, we don't see anything on that same scale, but certainly have areas in major urban areas where a single officer or pair of guys in a single patrol car cannot safely work in.

The only thing that keeps things at a low simmer (US scenario) and not a full boil Brazilian style is that the first time someone tried to establish a serious no-go zone backed up by major firepower, they'd be crushed. But if they weren't because resources or will weren't there, it'd become a growing problem.

I could see suppressing something like this definitely involving deployment of the National Guard, though primarily in a supporting role for law enforcement. Folks in America prefer to see cops and not soldiers arresting people.

[Abbott Shaull]

It is one of the reason why each State is to maintain National Guard, and why no matter what they unit might be trained for militarily, they are trained to help local, county, and State agencies as needed. Part of the reason why many State National Guard try to have an Engineer unit and Military Police units of some type as well as the combat arms and support units. One of the many reasons too why the Army National Guard in each State usually has several detachment to spread the force out, so in theory to be better able to get help where it is needed faster.

There are some States where none of their National Guard units have only combat training for if they are federalized and the units need to help out when called up. Similar to having Regular US Army Artillery who would act as fire support unit during the day and infantry at night, or Armor units who would act as Infantry or on Convoy escort duty.

Worse is that during the last 9 years many times when they were needed for Civilian relief missions the Guard units weren't home, they were overseas, and with some of these units having been deployed up to three time or mores. It is also one of the unwritten reason why Guard combat units are still kept in certain states too. The Federal Government and some State Government realize that in some locales of have control and having lawless regions is a very thin line that is only matter time before it can be crossed.

At times especially the combat units with their dual purpose when they are still at home, helps makes it where at time their Officers will think outside of the box too.

[Abbott Shaull]

By twilight 2000 standard their is very little difference in Militia/Regular Military unit/Law Enforcement unit/Gang/Marauders other than how the locals view them. Some place will lump them all in the same group, especially in areas where food is running low and it may be what they have to pay their 'taxes' with.

While other location will view them all differently. Say Marauder group or gang who go out and bring back loot they share with the population of their home base. Or County that has well organize Sheriff and part-time militia where they keep the bandit at bay, and crime is kept at tolerable rate, even if their is some corruption. Or something like the Free City of Krakow where a military unit has stayed in place, helping to train local militia, and perform the function of local police force or have specialize units that carry out those function. While the regular troop take a proactive in clear the region of any bandits and marauders who show up.

Even today like has been pointed out, especially in the larger cities there are place where Police units stay out of unless they have back-up with them at time. Again there places like K.I. Sawyer where the old Airbase is now serving as place where closet community for Marquette, MI. One of the thing with some of the non-compete clauses people had place in renting commercial property and lot of the people live out there are on welfare and large number are into drugs. Crime is everyday fact of life, Marquette County Sheriff Department, Michigan State Police, and township police department in Guinn, Michigan don't have enough officers to have full time presence on the old base. Marquette County is one of the 5 largest counties in State of Michigan, with very light population density county-wide, but it sees the same big-city crimes that happen in places like Detroit, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston and other large cities on regular basis. Not daily, but enough to that it does have certain elements of the community frustrated, and only matter time.

Much like when I lived in Detroit Lakes, MN. When ever a car was reported stolen in are near Detroit Lakes the odds were likely that the vehicle wasn't bound for chop shop, but bound for the Indian Reservation just north of town out in the back woods where the stolen vehicle would be burned after people got done joy riding and spending the evening drinking....

[pmulcahy11b]

I was just doing some research on the LAV-300 and found out that the Wichita Sheriffs Department has a LAV-300. It seems to be controversial.

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/...ew-urban-tank/

I apologize -- I just checked that link to read it again and remind myself what I was talking about at the time, and it's been pulled.