In Defense of the Red Army

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah it is the small details that people don't think about. It one of those things I like about these boards is that when you get people who had experience they tend to point out things that a great GM will take and incorporate into their game. Or ideas how to manage their game without going overboard....

[dragoon500ly]

Another key indicator would be batteries. A lot of people don't realize just how dependent modern militaries are on the ole dry-cell. Everything thing from NVGs, to handheld lasers, chemical alarms, all the way up to batteries for the starting carts for jets, and even the batteries on diesel-electric submarines. Fresh batteries are easier to recharge and last longer than ones that have been in use. A spike in production of batteries or military equipment replacing batteries in its larger items would alert a sharp intell analyst.

Didn't Clancy use this in one of his books?

[atiff]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Another key indicator would be batteries.

Didn't Clancy use this in one of his books?

"Red Storm Rising" if I remember correctly; the analyst spotting the subs all getting battery replacements in port.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah well the slow down during that sandstorm in 2003 wasn't due to because the supply of Kool Menthol 100s had dropped too low.

They were using batteries faster at much faster rate with almost everyone having NVGs, all the radios. Yet, I am sure if any of the troop with minimags and walkman sure packed enough for their use during the 3 week journey....*shrug*

[Adm.Lee]

Did anyone read Viktor Suvorov's "Icebreaker"? It was his attempt to claim that the Soviets were getting ready to jump the Nazis in July 1941, but they got pre-empted by Barbarossa.

He did have the interesting tidbit that the Soviet military intelligence chief in June 1941 was *not* shot, like his predecessors. The chief's defense was to present some bits of evidence to Stalin.
1) Soviet agents were shadowing German encampments, digging up their trash piles. The rifle-cleaning cloths only had summer-weight oil on them.
2) Soviet agents were monitoring the price of mutton. If the price fell, that would mean that the Germans were slaughtering sheep to make sheepskin coats for winter fighting.
3) His men were buying German-made stoves, and analyzing the heating fuel within. If winter fuel was being held off the market, it would show up in the civilian economy.
Since none of these things indicated the Germans were going to attack in June 1941, he got to keep his neck, and Stalin got to work on planning for a winter attack.

I have no idea if all of the above is true, but it makes an interesting case for how to perform long-term intelligence gathering.

BTW, if you play large East Front WW2 wargames like me, try experimenting with a Soviet offensive instead of a German one in 1941. It's a lot of fun.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Did anyone read Viktor Suvorov's "Icebreaker"? It was his attempt to claim that the Soviets were getting ready to jump the Nazis in July 1941, but they got pre-empted by Barbarossa.

He did have the interesting tidbit that the Soviet military intelligence chief in June 1941 was *not* shot, like his predecessors. The chief's defense was to present some bits of evidence to Stalin.
1) Soviet agents were shadowing German encampments, digging up their trash piles. The rifle-cleaning cloths only had summer-weight oil on them.
2) Soviet agents were monitoring the price of mutton. If the price fell, that would mean that the Germans were slaughtering sheep to make sheepskin coats for winter fighting.
3) His men were buying German-made stoves, and analyzing the heating fuel within. If winter fuel was being held off the market, it would show up in the civilian economy.
Since none of these things indicated the Germans were going to attack in June 1941, he got to keep his neck, and Stalin got to work on planning for a winter attack.

I have no idea if all of the above is true, but it makes an interesting case for how to perform long-term intelligence gathering.

BTW, if you play large East Front WW2 wargames like me, try experimenting with a Soviet offensive instead of a German one in 1941. It's a lot of fun.

That's a VERY interesting case indeed. I knew Sururov had written on the subject but I haven't read the book and didn't know those details.

With that said, I did just finish Rise and Fall of the Third Reich and it seems that Hitler tipped his hand a bit with the invasion of Yugoslavia and the (costly) delay in Barbarossa it caused; if they (the Soviets) were going to get the jump on 'em, why not then when the Nazis' pants were around their ankles as they pissed on the Balkans?

I'm not doubting you (or Sururov) just adding more speculation to an already interesting scenario!

[HorseSoldier]

Did anyone read Viktor Suvorov's "Icebreaker"? It was his attempt to claim that the Soviets were getting ready to jump the Nazis in July 1941, but they got pre-empted by Barbarossa.

I haven't read it, but that's interesting. I can believe the Soviets were thinking about it, at least to some extent. I don't think they were being overly realistic in their thinking, if they were, given how poorly Soviet forces performed in the Winter War and on the defense in the early days of Barbarossa.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

BTW, if you play large East Front WW2 wargames like me, try experimenting with a Soviet offensive instead of a German one in 1941. It's a lot of fun.

I've done this twice and its an intresting donnybrook all over Poland...

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Yeah well the slow down during that sandstorm in 2003 wasn't due to because the supply of Kool Menthol 100s had dropped too low.

They were using batteries faster at much faster rate with almost everyone having NVGs, all the radios. Yet, I am sure if any of the troop with minimags and walkman sure packed enough for their use during the 3 week journey....*shrug*

Knowing some of the characters I served with, the shortage of Kools played a larger role than the shortage of batteries! Now if the coffee had run out!!!!!

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Knowing some of the characters I served with, the shortage of Kools played a larger role than the shortage of batteries! Now if the coffee had run out!!!!!

*hehs*

Yeah, no coffee is a true emergency that requires immediate action.

When we went over, I knew coffee was going to be scarce - especially good coffee. So, locked up in a box, set aside for a month, was a nice krupp expresso machine, and 10 pounds of really really good coffee. The *looks* I got when I had my morning cups - once the month was past and all anyone else had was MRE coffee - was always amusing.. surprised I didn't get shot though.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

*hehs*

Yeah, no coffee is a true emergency that requires immediate action.

When we went over, I knew coffee was going to be scarce - especially good coffee. So, locked up in a box, set aside for a month, was a nice krupp expresso machine, and 10 pounds of really really good coffee. The *looks* I got when I had my morning cups - once the month was past and all anyone else had was MRE coffee - was always amusing.. surprised I didn't get shot though.

Yeah the military runs on coffee...and none of that decaf stuff...