The Military Deployments of T2K

[Abbott Shaull]

For once I will go with Leg on this.

The next thing by time we start the game in t2k, many of the units that would of supported those Corps would have been absorbed by other units. Either the Corps or Army directly or spread out to the Divisions and Brigades as replacements.

So that doesn't really bother me much that the units and hardware needed to support all of the extra Corps and Armies didn't exist. Much can be said about the unified German Army and again the Soviet Union military forces to a lesser degree.. By the design of the game Corps, Armies, Army Groups, and Fronts have all lost their meaning in reality. I think this is one of the reason why many of the Divisions were down to such low numbers where they could barely exist as single combat Brigade on NATO side of things let alone as an actual Division.

[Adm.Lee]

To LouieD:thanks for the outline, there were some new things there for me.
- Notably that 9th motorized division had a POMCUS set in UK? That's the first I've heard of it. Do you know if that was for its LM organization, or standard infantry?

Regarding "new" corps HQs written up by GDW.
I was looking at another (massive) NATO OB file that I pulled from this list earlier. Some notes from that:
- IX Corps HQ (and presumably some support elements) are in Japan, I assume to run the ground fight in Korea once the 7th & 25th Divisions are flown in.
- I note that a "standard" corps has 1 brigade each of MP, air defense, and engineers, plus an armored cavalry regiment. In the National Guard & Reserve listings, there are 4 ACR, 3+ AD brigades and 8 MP brigades. Knowing that assumptions aren't worth much, let's work with the Army planned to set up 4 new Corps HQs when at full strength. Seeing as how all of the active Corps had odd numbers, I'd bet on them being II, IV, VI, and VIII Corps, all of which have "good" histories.
- For that matter, I see 21 Reserve and Guard field artillery brigades, when 1-3 are expected to support each corps. I also note 8 active brigades, so that comes close to a planning total of ten corps.

Aside: as I said elsewhere, I am in a PBEM game of GDW's Third World War boardgame. Now I want to try the Norway game with 10th & 9th US divisions.
Adding artillery would be fun, too, but I'd need to do a lot of Soviets, too.

[HorseSoldier]

I don't know. It's pretty clear in USAVG that a lot of the Corps involved weren't pre-planned, but thrown together once the war begins (i.e. X Corps in Alaska). I think this is an artifact of GDW thinking that there had to be a Corps HQ for any conglomeration of two or more divisions. In the case of Alaska, since there just aren't any other assets to the Corps, I'm of the opinion that CG 10th Mountain got handed a second hat as CG X Corps and told to have fun.

For that matter, I see 21 Reserve and Guard field artillery brigades, when 1-3 are expected to support each corps. I also note 8 active brigades, so that comes close to a planning total of ten corps.

A portion of those were intended to provide flexibility to commanders above the Corps level to plus up firepower to units in the attack or defense that needed the extra hitting power.

In the Twilight War a lot of those extra divisions in theater that are tossed into made up Corps would likely have been theater reserves that were attached out to subordinate Corps to allow rotating other units out of the line to reconstitute, etc.

[Louied]

I didn't know about the POMCUS stock in the UK either until I read 'Strategic Geography' , which states only that there was POMCUS stocks for a 18,000 man division. I have also read that the Army could no longer justify the 9th as the HTTB div. as Congress kept cutting weapons systems they wanted.... So the late 80's plan was to convert it to Mech (deleting a active bde & adding the WA ARNG's 81 Bde, 2 Armd/2 mech as a RO) and assign it as SACEUR's Strategic Reserve (Land) based in the UK. The most likely deployments were to reinforce the FRG/Danish corps in Schleswig-Holstein or Southern Norway.

As per Maneuver and Firepower, the 116 ACR & 163 ACR were converted to Armd Bde.'s as there was no need for them in the Army's force structure based on five Corps (I - 107 ACR, IIII- 3 ACR, V- 11 ACR, VII- 2 ACR, XVIII- 278 ACR)

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I don't know. It's pretty clear in USAVG that a lot of the Corps involved weren't pre-planned, but thrown together once the war begins (i.e. X Corps in Alaska). I think this is an artifact of GDW thinking that there had to be a Corps HQ for any conglomeration of two or more divisions. In the case of Alaska, since there just aren't any other assets to the Corps, I'm of the opinion that CG 10th Mountain got handed a second hat as CG X Corps and told to have fun.



A portion of those were intended to provide flexibility to commanders above the Corps level to plus up firepower to units in the attack or defense that needed the extra hitting power.

What a lot of people are not aware of is that the ACRs have extra staff to allow them to control a wide range of attachments. 2ACR in PG1, just to name one example, had an entire field artillery brigade attached to it for the opening breach of the Iraqi lines. It was quite normal in the various REFORGERs to attach a armd, mech or attack helicopter battalion. When 2ACR was pulling border guard duty in Germany, a MI battalion was attached. Doesn't seem much, I know, but a brigade normally was enough staff to control between a max of 4-5 battalions. An ACR has enough to control 8-12 battalions. Yet another reason why ACRs are just so damn useful to have around.

[Panther Al]

Yet another reason why getting rid of the ACR's by making them a cookie cutter battalion is rather insane.

Once again, flexibility is dropped in order to give it... um... "flexibility". Yeah. About that...

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I don't know. It's pretty clear in USAVG that a lot of the Corps involved weren't pre-planned, but thrown together once the war begins (i.e. X Corps in Alaska). I think this is an artifact of GDW thinking that there had to be a Corps HQ for any conglomeration of two or more divisions. In the case of Alaska, since there just aren't any other assets to the Corps, I'm of the opinion that CG 10th Mountain got handed a second hat as CG X Corps and told to have fun.

Well, it is a rule of military thumb that once you have at least two of something, you need a higher commander of some kind, to provide a clear chain of command.

In the case of the X Corps in Alaska, I agree that one was probably thrown together.

And I wonder if the separate brigades that were formed into the 44th division was some idea of USAREUR. When a 4-star general says, "I don't need three brigades, I want a division!"... he gets a division. With a slapped-together staff and supporting arms, of course.

Also, in my previous guesstimate, I overlooked that 1 of the ACRs was already spoken for, as the 107th is allocated to I Corps. FWIW, one of my wargaming pals was a battery commander in that regiment, he thought they were tasked for Korea.

[Legbreaker]

The best laid plans only last until contact with the enemy. From there on it's all about appropriate action and response to the unfolding situation.
Yes some units were slated to go to certain places, but that doesnt' mean that the situation at the time meant that's exactly what happened. An enemy offensive on one place may mean the unit loading up to go another place ends up retasked in transit.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Does anyone know where the 377th Military Intelligence fits? Or what units are based in and around Orlando?

I ask because I'm working on a sort of "Orlando Sourcebook" for my hopefully upcoming campaign. I've got it that most of the fallout from Tampa/St. Pete went south of Orlando, and most of what Patrick got blew out to sea.

This leaves Orlando relatively intact, and a jewel for New America to try and seize.

The Orlando of 2000 has a population right around 22000, most concentrated in the downtown area, near the hospital district, and the rest at the Orlando NTC (and literally right next door is the 377th's headquarters).

Whatever I end up calling the unit - probably it'll wind up as a "Joint Task Force Operations Area" of a few hundred soldiers, here's a very rough TO&E:

375+ troops
1000+ dependents
2x M113A1 (see below)
2x LAV-100
2x LAV-150
2x HEMTT
1x UH1 Iroquois
?x HMMWV

Post strike, the skeleton crew and cadets at the NTC were quickly put on civil support duties as were the skeleton crew of the 377th, and un-deployed personnel stationed at various R&D and support posts near the University of Central Florida and several military contractors based around the city proper, as well as Army reservists and USMC reservists.

Through the looting and riots that followed, coupled with desertions of personnel trying to either reach more distant homes or escape the urban chaos, the provisional "Sunshine Brigade" settled at around 375 personnel plus dependents. The unit is stationed at the Orlando NTC and is a frequent target of harassment by various factions throughout Florida, not the least of which is New America (See Into the Howling Wilderness).

The Brigade is, curiously, "armor heavy": Florida State Troopers maintained a barracks in south Orlando and the motor pool included a crisis response unit consisting of two LAV-150s. Likewise, the Orlando Police Department maintained two LAV-100s. Both are now in possession of the Brigade, traded in exchange for the Brigade's assistance and overwatch in keeping the city safe. But even more curious than these four armored cars are the two M113s. Three weeks and four days after TDM, these two vehicles (at the time in NASA emergency vehicle livery of white and pale green) arrived at the NTC carrying personnel and dependents from the now ruined Patrick AFB. The drivers had risked serious radiation exposure to retrieve the two APCs and escape the devastation to reach Orlando.

While the Commando scout cars and HMMWVs operate regularly, the M113s are kept under wraps. Both have had pintle-mounted .50 caliber guns installed. While threatening radio propaganda from New America have directly mentioned the Commandos, they either choose to ignore or do not know about the M113s.

Finally the Sunshine Brigade is in possession of a true treasure: a working helicopter. A single UH1 is based on the NTC grounds. The UH1 came from the Lockheed-Martin facility in East Orlando. It is still flightworthy as on the day of the initial strikes, it was in a specially designed hangar undergoing EW testing on the airframe, and was thus insulated from the EMP. Many of the personnel who stayed on with the Brigade are Army Aviation and thus there is no shortage of qualified crew. The UH1 has a door-mounted M134 mini-gun on the portside, and a sling-mounted M60 starboard. There is plentiful avgas at Herndon Municipal Airport, although it has to be trucked a few miles through hostile territory. New America sorely wants the aircraft intact, as well as the avgas, and attempts take Orlando have been mounted before. The Sunshine Brigade's mobility and resources have thus far won out, however.

Be gentle, this is an alpha copy.

[dragoon500ly]

A lot of the units in the FL/GA area are assigned to Third Army/CENTCOM if they are Regulars or NATO reinforcement if they are Reserve/National Guard. Tampa, at one time, was CENTCOM headquarters. Hope this helps!