From Archive: G11

[StainlessSteelCynic]

This is what one of my friends did to stat out the G11 and AN94
I'm basically just quoting him here...

"Full-auto ROF:5, Recoil- SS:2, Brst:4, Range:50
3-rd Burst ROF:3, Recoil- Brst:2, Range:55
With the AN-94, the 2-rd burst Recoil should probably be Brst:1, Range:+5
For me, that gives enough game difference to reflect the real world improvement of such a high ROF without making the weapon the ultimate BFG"

[Legbreaker]

I was just thinking about the G11 and wondered if anyone knows if the designers ever thought about marrying it to a grenade launcher of some type?
It seems to be the way of the future for most weapon systems so it would be reasonable to expect it to happen if the G11 had been issued as planned. My guess is though that a dedicated GL wouldn't have happened until at least the very late 90's, perhaps not even until today.

If one was in the pipeline, would it have been a standard 40mm or would they have tinkered with the idea a bit and gone with something else such as 25mm, 37mm or even developed some type of caseless?

Would use of rifle grenades, perhaps of the BTU variety, have been contemplated?

Thoughts?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Would use of rifle grenades, perhaps of the BTU variety, have been contemplated?

I'm a big fan of BTU grenades in the T2K universe but I think the 4.7mm round would be a bit under-powered for BTU grenades. The round relies on high velocity combined with small diameter; not much muzzle energy to work with. I could be wrong though. 5.56mm isn't much more powerful and it seems to work fine for BTU grenades.

I completely agree that had the G11 gone into large scale production there would have been a GL program alongside it. I would bet on a 40mm system.

[HorseSoldier]

Probably just some adaptation of the existing HK-69 GL, given the time frame and such, if the German Army identified a requirement for a 40mm GL to go with the G11.

[Legbreaker]

I'm wondering if they might not have gone the 25mm route using the research the US was doing into systems such as the XM-307 and XM-25.
The aim of the G11 was after all to minimise weight while maximising ammunition carried. The advanced 25mm ammo appears to do this admirably (although I'm sure there's glitches to work out).
I'm thinking they may have taken that a step further too and made it caseless given much of the chemistry was already done for the 4.7mm round.
Perhaps something like the Metal Storm GL could have been looked at. http://world.guns.ru/grenade/austr/metal-storm-e.html

By today, it could have developed into an absolutely outstanding system.

[pmulcahy11b]

As a tangent to Leg's post, I am having a hell of a time trying to come up with a good way to simulate, in t2K terms, MetalStorm weapons. One, I haven't been able to find any hard data on weight or barrel length, though these can be given an educated guess. I can't find anything on muzzle velocity at all. There's also a strange thing about MetalStorm weapons: their stacked rounds.

The first round out of the barrel has a certain amount of barrel length to work with. The next round has a little more barrel length to work with, possibly making it a bit more accurate. The third round has a little more barrel length to work with, etc.

And then, there's the cyclic rate of fire. A MetalStorm-type rifle might be able to put 20 rounds well downrange before the shooter would feel the recoil from the first round. Would there even be any recoil modifiers in game terms?

And for the most part, you don't have a mechanical system anymore. This cuts down on felt recoil even more, plus a lot of the ancillary "rattling and shaking" that most automatic weapons have to some degree as a part of their mechanical action.

It's like chokes on a shotgun. I've been wrestling with this for a while, fruitlessly.

[B.T.]

Leg,

I have never heard of the idea, to amalgate grenade launcher and G11. I served 1985 to 1986, at a time, where the G11 project had not been cancelled. IIRC the "Granatpistole" (a.k.a. HK-69) had just been fielded. It was the only weapon we tossed around, but never shot with. From these facts I'd guess, the Bundeswehr did not plan an underslung grenade launcher. The "Granatpistole" would have been the choice at that time IRL.

In the game I use HK-69 as part of the regular armament of the Bundeswehr. In the "yellow bible" it says, the TGS can be attached to all battle and assault rifles. This would include the G11, in my opinion. I personally let the TGS appear only in units equipped with G3 or G41, but if a player would like to put a TGS underneath his G11, I'd let him.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

One aspect of the MetalStorm system is that because the system is controlled electronically, each round could be factory set to have the same accuracy despite the differences in barrel length each subsequent round would get. Support weapon versions of the MetalStorm concept apparently made use of this feature to have a programmable spread if multiple rounds were to be fired on the same target.
All in all, it just makes the concept that much more of a problem to model in a game

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

As a tangent to Leg's post, I am having a hell of a time trying to come up with a good way to simulate, in t2K terms, MetalStorm weapons. One, I haven't been able to find any hard data on weight or barrel length, though these can be given an educated guess. I can't find anything on muzzle velocity at all. There's also a strange thing about MetalStorm weapons: their stacked rounds.

The first round out of the barrel has a certain amount of barrel length to work with. The next round has a little more barrel length to work with, possibly making it a bit more accurate. The third round has a little more barrel length to work with, etc.

And then, there's the cyclic rate of fire. A MetalStorm-type rifle might be able to put 20 rounds well downrange before the shooter would feel the recoil from the first round. Would there even be any recoil modifiers in game terms?

And for the most part, you don't have a mechanical system anymore. This cuts down on felt recoil even more, plus a lot of the ancillary "rattling and shaking" that most automatic weapons have to some degree as a part of their mechanical action.

It's like chokes on a shotgun. I've been wrestling with this for a while, fruitlessly.