OT: Mr. Obama's War has Started

[95th Rifleman]

I thought Bosnia proved how useless a no-fly zone really is. the buggers just painted red crosses on their transport helos and kept moving troops in to massacre the civvies.

You need boots on the ground to conduct any kind of war. Since Gulf 91 politicians have this idea that all you need is air strikes.

[Legbreaker]

I see a difference between Libya and Bahrain:
Libya is basically a civil war with the current dictator well known for his "casual" attitude towards civil rights.
Bahrain on the other hand is not a civil war. Yes, it's a rather heavy handed use of military force, but it's not a shooting war like Libya.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

I thought Bosnia proved how useless a no-fly zone really is. the buggers just painted red crosses on their transport helos and kept moving troops in to massacre the civvies.

You need boots on the ground to conduct any kind of war. Since Gulf 91 politicians have this idea that all you need is air strikes.

Well they did get spoiled with the success of that 6 week Air campaign didn't they...

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

I thought Bosnia proved how useless a no-fly zone really is. the buggers just painted red crosses on their transport helos and kept moving troops in to massacre the civvies.

The pressure of the air campaign against Serbia in '99 eventually led to their withdrawal from Kosovo and the end of the Balkan Wars of the '90s.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Raellus

The pressure of the air campaign against Serbia in '99 eventually led to their withdrawal from Kosovo and the end of the Balkan Wars of the '90s.

The key word is "eventualy".

I'm not saying air power isn't effective but it does not solve these kinds of Humanitarian crises. How many civvies where butchered while we where merrily blowing up air defences and such in Bosnia?

The no fly zone let Saddam butcher his own folks for a DECADE before the 2nd war kicked off in 2003.

No fly zones on their own do not solve these problems but allow politicans the illusion of doing something.

[Ramjam]

If there must be outside boots on the ground than they must be arab and only in a peace keeping role.
If NATO troops go in there than it would be Iraq all over again and the Arab world will turn against us even more than they have at the moment.
You might get away with sending in Turk troops if NATO really wants to send troops but with the problems they are having with the Kurds I very much doubt we will see them offering any.
Support the rebels with SF and air power etc, but at the end of the day they have to fight the fight. All we are doing is leveling the playing field.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Ramjam

If there must be outside boots on the ground than they must be arab and only in a peace keeping role.
If NATO troops go in there than it would be Iraq all over again and the Arab world will turn against us even more than they have at the moment.
You might get away with sending in Turk troops if NATO really wants to send troops but with the problems they are having with the Kurds I very much doubt we will see them offering any.
Support the rebels with SF and air power etc, but at the end of the day they have to fight the fight. All we are doing is leveling the playing field.

Doubtful that the Arab League is going to support troops. The other major Arab power is Egypt, and the good Colonel would just love to have Egyptians "invade" Libya; it would almost be as good a propaganda tool as having the US/UK send in a couple of brigades. As for the Italians, they last thing they want is their troops in Libya.

Based on what I'm hearing on the news, I feel that the political will to commit troops in any kind of role just isn't there.

[Webstral]

The whole situation is a pickle, to be sure. It would be nice to come up with a ground force that could give the rebels the winning edge in Libya, but I’m at a loss as to who will provide that force. If we were to think outside the box, we might try to get India to send some troops. India has a Muslim population that participates in a democracy. India is hardly a Western imperial power. There are some good reasons why India would not want to participate, though.

Webstral

[95th Rifleman]

Keep an eye on the French. they have been in front with all this almost from kick-off and have to date been the only nation to recognise the rebels.

I'm expecting French legion "peacekeepers" at some point.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

The key word is "eventualy".

About a year? Not bad considering all that came before. No, the air campaign against Serbia was not quite as clean as that launched against Saddam in '91, but it got results. Milosovic was out of office a year or two later and the Balkans have been relatively peaceful since. IIRC, the only ground forces committed were a UN peacekeeping force.

Aside from a few SF types, I doubt that we'll see Americans on the ground in Libya. We're too strung out as it is and we don't have a good history there (..."to the shores of Tripoli"...). Logistically and militarily speaking, France would be the logical choice but their colonial history in the region might rub many in the region the wrong way.

[Graebarde]

de ja vue? Seems there was similar actions back about what 25 years ago? Let'em kill each other off, and let allie sort 'em out. If the Arabs want him out, let THEM do it, of course they won't becaues they'll get their a$$ kicked.. they already are waffling on actions taken... best thing to do to the whole fkn region is turn it into a giant mirror.. from the atlantic to the himalayas... you can rebore through glass can't you?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

de ja vue? Seems there was similar actions back about what 25 years ago? Let'em kill each other off, and let allie sort 'em out. If the Arabs want him out, let THEM do it, of course they won't becaues they'll get their a$$ kicked.. they already are waffling on actions taken... best thing to do to the whole fkn region is turn it into a giant mirror.. from the atlantic to the himalayas... you can rebore through glass can't you?

Having a bad day Grae? Funny, I thought you were more of a "people person" than that

Seriously though, this is a discussion about a real-life situation that is still unfolding. Probably best not to suggest carpet-nuking large tracts of North Africa and the Middle East, it might be a tad offensive to some people, yeah?

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by Targan

Having a bad day Grae? Funny, I thought you were more of a "people person" than that

Seriously though, this is a discussion about a real-life situation that is still unfolding. Probably best not to suggest carpet-nuking large tracts of North Africa and the Middle East, it might be a tad offensive to some people, yeah?

People person? Me? Yeah I have my moments. And you're probably right, but it's what I've said since the 80's at least, so why change to the warm fuzzy PC BS now.. they say you can't teach an old dawg new tricks..

See where we lost our first bird overnight. At least we didn't loose the jocky's, but it's only a matter of time before the golden bullet finds one of them, sorry to say. In harms way for no good reason.

[HorseSoldier]

Aside from a few SF types, I doubt that we'll see Americans on the ground in Libya. We're too strung out as it is and we don't have a good history there (..."to the shores of Tripoli"...). Logistically and militarily speaking, France would be the logical choice but their colonial history in the region might rub many in the region the wrong way.

Rather more recently than the Marines going ashore 200 years ago, Wheelus AFB was a substantial base outside Tripoli in operation for thirty years and change, from mid-WW2 until Khadafi took power and ejected us. My understanding is that the US base was not especially unpopular prior to the ejection.

Of course that was in 1969 or 70, and there's been substantial water under the bridge since then, with the current Libyan population mostly not knowing anything but life under Khadafi's regime and propaganda machine.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

Rather more recently than the Marines going ashore 200 years ago, Wheelus AFB was a substantial base outside Tripoli in operation for thirty years and change, from mid-WW2 until Khadafi took power and ejected us. My understanding is that the US base was not especially unpopular prior to the ejection.

I first learned about the existance of Wheelus AFB when I read a great novel about terrorists who captured a civilian airliner full of US citizens and held them hostage after landing them at Wheelus. The most memorable thing about the novel for me was that it was the first time I ever learned about the M551 Sheridan. In the novel a US joint ops mission is sent in to rescue the hostages. They have to defeat Libyan Army forces who are on the base tacitly defending the terrorists so USN SEALs are sent in to rescue the hostages backed up by Sheridans dropped in from cargo aircraft at extremely low altitude over the runways on that cool collapsing pallet/parachute system they used to have.

I know this novel probably sounds excellent to Paul and others. I'm really sorry but I can't remember the author or the title. I'll try using my Google-Fu to find it.