CONUS T2K Infantry Team Weapons

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

...See previous comment about weapons losing effectiveness when opponents start actually using cover and concealment rather than advancing in open order skirmish lines asking to be shot.

These weren't cases of people just walking in open order towards the enemy, the warfare during the Boer Wars was closer to combat in WW2 than in WW1 but often involving spotting and engaging the enemy at far greater distances. There were a number of reports of Boer sharpshooters engaging British forces at 800-1200 yards. The Boers would typically place their forces on hilltops, watch for British troops and then engage them at maximum distance so that they could inflict some casualties and then escape from any follow up.

I'm not saying that all combat takes place at 500+ metres, it's been shown time and again that many, if not most, engagements take place under 300m. And I'm not saying that everyone can identify and hit the enemy at 500+ metres. There are however, still circumstances were you can see the enemy at distances greater than the effective range of assault rifles (Afghanistan has furnished a few examples). In these cases a 7.62mmN/7.62mmL/.338 DMR and/or a Medium MG is a definite asset.

[LAW0306]

Cynic..I enjoy your posts but I must take action on the 5.56 in open country in Afghanistan. I think what you are talking about is urban legend or myth. I have seen in my two tours to this land ie ground combat not even good or even avaerage shooters in the afghan population. they just stink. they dont know how to sight in weapons and dont practice much. the Soviet just sucked more. I talked with tribal elders about there actions with them and they told me that they were men (Afghans)fighting boys (Russian conscripts) and that the Russian sprayed and prayed and they(Afghans) would close with russian and kill him with grenades and close combat. The 5.56mm round has hit and killed Afghans out to ranges of 500 m or more from rifles and up to 1 k with Squad automatic weapons. I Have seen this with my own eyes. They just cant hang with western troops. Either our forces or the brits to or north.(scots guards and queens royal lancers) they could not hang with us... alot I think is tv or media hype that talks things up. one of our guys dies or is wounded and its a major event but we kill 5 to 6 of theres in same action and wound twice as more. I carried a M4 and never had a failure for my weapon to preform. The ammo I had was great AND NEVER FEARED THAT i COULD NOT KILL OR WOUND ENEMEY FORCES. There is a reason nato and modern armies went to this round too many to address here but it works great trust me on this. Another big hit was the M203. If you went out you carried as many as you could they fear them and also the M32 a little heavy but it worked. I dont want to go into classifed after actions but trust me both American and the UK are doing quite well and we are winning the fight. Now are we winning the politics i dont know, I'm a Marine and i dont worry about this. I go were I'm told to go and Fight who I 'm told to fight. hope this helps with thread if not please delete If i offend.

[simonmark6]

Sadly, the politicians aren't as effective as you guys on the ground, if they were you probably wouldn't have to be putting it on the line in our name...

You have my respect for that.

Back OT, you make some interesting points there, LAW, traditionally, Afghan mountains tribesmen were good shots but that was with single shot rifles often for the pot, if you missed you went hungry. Nowadays this isn't the case and I woul have to agree with your assessment of their marksmanship since automatic weapons have been introduced.

As for what would be the typical loadout for CONUS Infantry squads, there are several issues that may preclude the need for longer ranged weapons anyway:
1) How many troops in a squad will be able to effectively engage targets at greater than 500m anyway.
2) Training: Law once pointed out his experience that combat doesn't necessarily lead to better troop quality (I think he mentioned his experience with Shining Path guerrilas, sorry if I'm wrong Law). Troops constantly in the line and not having a chance for rest, refit and retraining may become less effective over time. This certainly seems to be born out by WW2 reports, line units that were in combat a lot degraded over time, the crack units were troops with high levels of training that were honed in sharp intensive combat and then pulled out for more training. Troops in CONUS units may end up being honed to the bone. This means that troops may well rely more on the more user friendly lighter calibres despite needing greater firepower.
3) Different weapons for different ranges.
It would make sense to me to arm the unit with the most effective compromise weapon (probably 5.56mm) and have a range of support weapons to engage at different ranges and circumstances, a grenade launcher for people in cover, a DMR for countersniper work, a machinegun for suppression and longer range work, that way the heavier rounds are used for what they are best at rather than being "wasted" with grunts shooting them at the 500m or less ranges.
4) Ammunition compatibility seems to be important, but throughout history troops have tended to plump for the best weapon for teh job rather than cinging to ammo compatibility.

All of this of course is counter-intuitive to me, I want my ubersoldier honed by endless combat hitting the enemy at three miles with his huge calibre rifle. That however is not the reality of war, something I've been lucky enough never to have experienced for myself.

Glad to see you back and safe LAW.

[Legbreaker]

As much as we all may wish otherwise, the units in the US in 2000 will be armed with whatever can be scrounged up for them. We already know from the existence of the M16EZ that top, or even mediocre quality weapons are in rather short supply, what with the huge demand in Europe, Korea, the middle east and Alaska (not to mention Texas). We also know that the battlefields in Northern America didn't open up until relatively late in the war when most units had already left the country (taking everything military related that wasn't nailed down).
So, I see many units will have a mix of weapons taken from a variety of sources. There will be attempts to equip units along authorised lines, but until Omega lands (bringing all those personal weapons which you can bet won't stay in the hands of those discharged from service) many soldiers will consider themselves lucky to have a weapon capable of automatic fire.