Worldwide weapony post-T2K

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

If we assume the V1.0 timeline then there is really no chance for the L85 upgrade. The first (A1) upgrade program came as a direct result of the 1st Gulf War. If that conflict had not been fought then there would be no reason to upgrade the L85 (it's problems where never really highlighted till they where taken into proper wartime conditions), the same would go for the Challenger MBT.

There would definitely still have been a Challenger 2; whilst it didn't enter service until the 1990's, the origins of the programme go back to the second half of the 1980's, so it would have gone ahead regardless of whether the 1991 Gulf War had taken place or not.

[Rainbow Six]

Moving away from the UK specifiically and addressing the Worldwide part of the thread, I think it's been discussed before that the Franco Belgian Union would be in control of the FN facility at Liege, so might be in a position to supply some weapons to its allies (e.g. Quebec).

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Moving away from the UK specifiically and addressing the Worldwide part of the thread, I think it's been discussed before that the Franco Belgian Union would be in control of the FN facility at Liege, so might be in a position to supply some weapons to its allies (e.g. Quebec).

If it hasn't been nuked...

I would suggest a more likely approach is a covert supply of captured weapons.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by James Langham

If it hasn't been nuked...

I would suggest a more likely approach is a covert supply of captured weapons.

True on both points...V2 NATO Vehicle Guide has Liege occupied by 1st Belgian Infantry Division, but that doesn't definitively confirm one way or the other whether it was nuked or not.

Re: your second point, in my T2K World I have the Duke of Cornwall receiving captured German weapons from a French arms dealer.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Re: your second point, in my T2K World I have the Duke of Cornwall receiving captured German weapons from a French arms dealer.

This just switched on a lightbulb. I's completely forgotten about Fance! They would of been in a superb position to build weapons and supply NATO nations post-exchange, at crippling terms favouring France. Having sat out the Twilight war their manufacturing capabilities would be able to produce such equipment and munitions.

It strikes me that (assuming France doesn't decide to take advantage and expand it's borders) they could come out of the Twilight war as a dominating political and industrial powerhouse post-2k.

Now what would be the likelyhood of France becoming an arms-dealer post-exchange and if they do, what would they build?

[Raellus]

I don't think France would sell weapons and ammo to the NATO nations until well after the war was over. I see relations between France and Germany as being very frosty (especially after French occupation of German territory in the Rhineland). I would imagine that the other NATO countries that stuck with Germany and fought the Soviets would not feel particularly inclined to do business with France. I would imagine that the UK might also feel a little threatened by them.

I just had a thought that perhaps why the Germans wanted the U.S. forces out, but wanted to keep their AFVs and HW, was not so much to guard against the remaining Soviet forces in Poland (they seem to be pulling out and going home or disintigrating into scattered marauder bands in the spring of 2001), but to guard against the rising power of France.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I don't think France would sell weapons and ammo to the NATO nations until well after the war was over. I see relations between France and Germany as being very frosty (especially after French occupation of German territory in the Rhineland). I would imagine that the other NATO countries that stuck with Germany and fought the Soviets would not feel particularly inclined to do business with France. I would imagine that the UK might also feel a little threatened by them.

I just had a thought that perhaps why the Germans wanted the U.S. forces out, but wanted to keep their AFVs and HW, was not so much to guard against the remaining Soviet forces in Poland (they seem to be pulling out and going home or disintigrating into scattered marauder bands in the spring of 2001), but to guard against the rising power of France.

Tha's an interesting what-if for the end of the twilight war. If France decided to expand and take advantage of post-war europe, there isn't a hell of allot that could stop them.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

It strikes me that (assuming France doesn't decide to take advantage and expand it's borders) they could come out of the Twilight war as a dominating political and industrial powerhouse post-2k.

It strikes you? Well yeah, that's exactly what happens in canon. I take it you've never read the Traveller: 2300 timeline?

[atiff]

Originally Posted by Targan

It strikes you? Well yeah, that's exactly what happens in canon. I take it you've never read the Traveller: 2300 timeline?

Where can a good timeline for this be found on the Net? I've looked before without much success...

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Targan

It strikes you? Well yeah, that's exactly what happens in canon. I take it you've never read the Traveller: 2300 timeline?

Nope, never played traveller or read the timeline for it. just T2K and the later 2013 version.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

There would definitely still have been a Challenger 2; whilst it didn't enter service until the 1990's, the origins of the programme go back to the second half of the 1980's, so it would have gone ahead regardless of whether the 1991 Gulf War had taken place or not.

There will also be upgraded Cheiftains with the CHARM upgrades.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

There would definitely still have been a Challenger 2; whilst it didn't enter service until the 1990's, the origins of the programme go back to the second half of the 1980's, so it would have gone ahead regardless of whether the 1991 Gulf War had taken place or not.

I was referring to the Challenger 1 upgrade program, just after the gulf war several Challengers recieved various upgrades prior to the Chally 2 coming online. After the Chally 2 entered full production there was no need to upgrade the Chally 1 anymore.

Officialy the Chally 2 entered service in '98 but they began production in '93/'94 so I'm thinking that they would of been rushed into service when war became inevitable,perhaps enough to equip the BOAR?

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

I was referring to the Challenger 1 upgrade program, just after the gulf war several Challengers recieved various upgrades prior to the Chally 2 coming online. After the Chally 2 entered full production there was no need to upgrade the Chally 1 anymore.

Officialy the Chally 2 entered service in '98 but they began production in '93/'94 so I'm thinking that they would of been rushed into service when war became inevitable,perhaps enough to equip the BOAR?

Sorry mate, picked you up wrongly - I thought you meant there wouldn't be a Chally 2.

In the V1 timeline I could definitely see the Chally 2 coming into service earlier than it did IRL. How much earlier is, I guess, open to debate, and I can't locate any production figures to indicate how many vehicles could be produced per month. For myself, I opted to have five Chally 2 Regiments at the start of the war, with the other MBT Regiments using Chally 1 and Chieftains relegated to the ubiqutous "storage". As the War goes on, Chieftains are pulled from storage and new Chally 2's continue to be manufactured until the nuclear exchanges (Chally 1 production stopped circa 1990 or thereabouts), so chances are by the end of 1997 a typical RAC MBT Regiment could have a mix of Chieftains, Chally 1's and Chally 2's.

Incidentally, wikipedia makes reference to an SPAA platform based on the Challenger platform

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_Marksman

Whilst it appears to be a "what if" sort of thing, wonder if anyone thinks it's likely that it might have been picked up by the UK or others in a continuing Cold War?

[95th Rifleman]

If WW2 is anything to go by, it can be expected that a whole series of variants based on obsolete tanks to fulfill battlefield roles would appear over the courseof the war.

I would expect to see tank chassis in all nations become modified, especialy after damage. If you can salvage a tank with a fragged turret then it's easier to replace the turret than rebuild/repair.

Two ideas I toyed with ina campaighn was a kangaroo variant of the chieften which elaced the turret with troop carrying space in a similar fashion to the WW2 kangaroos and a variant of the chieften that replaced the gun turret with a missle system for the Milan.

[Rainbow Six]

I tend to agree with thepoints Raellus has put forward concerning the French supplying NATO. Quite apart from anything else, by the start of 1998 France has invaded the territory of two NATO members (West Germany and the Netherlands), so one could argue that under Article 5 of the NATO treaty, was at war with NATO (although personally I think that the realpolitik of the global situation at the time means that the UK, US, and others would choose to conevniently forget about Article 5).

Either way though, I think Rae's right - relations are going to be frosty at best. Also, those countries are going to be limited as to what they can offer as payment. In referring to French allies earlier, I was really meaning members (and prospective members) of the Franco Belgian Union. If the FN facilities at Liege are intact, then I think the French are in an excellent position to become a major (perhaps even the dominant) arms trader for many years after the War. One possible area of trade outwith the FBU might be with Spain and Portugal.

I still can't find anything to confirm one way or the other what Liege's fate was. Did the map in Going Home go that far west?

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I still can't find anything to confirm one way or the other what Liege's fate was. Did the map in Going Home go that far west?

I'm inclined to assume they got hit. Fabrique Nationale was a huge supplier to western nations ad had to be on the Soviet target list. It would be crazy not to target it.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

I'm inclined to assume they got hit. Fabrique Nationale was a huge supplier to western nations ad had to be on the Soviet target list. It would be crazy not to target it.

Yeah, it would make sense wouldn't it...

Mind you, a couple of minutes digging around the web also came up with Nexter (formerly GIAT)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nexter

Their official website...

http://www.nexter-group.fr/index.php...emid=1&lang=en

Apparently the FAMAS rifle is manufctured in St Etienne...

[Raellus]

I wonder if the Germans got any American tac-nukes when most U.S. forces left north-central Europe during Omega...

With the U.S. XI Corps remaining in N.W. Poland as a bulwark against further Soviet aggression, and a west-leaning Free Polish Congress presumably cooperating with -or, at least not actively working against- Germany would be better placed to address the territorial incursion of the Franco-Belgian Union. I assume that a national German priority would be taking the Rhineland back at some point. With American material support, they could at least start thinking about doing so. IF they inherited a couple of tac-nukes, their position would be a little stronger. Still, it's advantage France, but Germany would be in better shape strategically than they had been before Omega.