Worldwide weapony post-T2K

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

However, Webstral, you still overlooked one thing. At the time, the french communist party is still strong and it takes order directly from Moscow. In a T2K setting, the French government had just switched to a coalition composed by communist and socialist.

As Leg points out, the results of the latest election are a temporary phenomenon. Asking the Soviets to base their geopolitical decisions with repercussions extending over a generation or more on the outcome of the latest election in a Western country is asking them to go to Vegas with the rent money.

Originally Posted by Mohoender

In the 1980's relations between France and USSR had been strained by the relations France maintained with NATO. France walking away from NATO could very well warm up the relations with Moscow. Then, what you say about the soviets equally apply to NATO/US (and don't tell me that US doesn't play long term ). Therefore, the nuking of France might equally be the doing of US. US government attitude with Iraq tends to convince me of that. My take anyway.

I agree that if the Soviets don't hit France, the US will. One could even imagine a situation in which the Soviets nuke Mexico and blame it on the US, while the US nukes France and blames the USSR. In any event, France is too powerful to allow a temporary neutrality to keep her on the sidelines while global civilization hangs in the balance.


Webstral

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Webstral

As Leg points out, the results of the latest election are a temporary phenomenon. Asking the Soviets to base their geopolitical decisions with repercussions extending over a generation or more on the outcome of the latest election in a Western country is asking them to go to Vegas with the rent money.

What they did in no less than 8 occasions on the outcome of WW2 and with great success : Albania, Austria, Bulgaria, Czecoslovakia, Finland, Hungary, Poland,and Roumania. Sometimes, the red army was a great help, at other times it didn't have to intervene. Without the marshall plan they would have been successfull on the eight bet instead of the six they got.

I agree that the situation isn't the same but leg's point about election is not convincing for France. With the war, elections in France might be suspended (as it was in 1940) or their rules might be deeply modified (as in 1958). Moreover, the parties were ruling for 7 years and with T2K they had just come to power (not my choice, blame the authors).

US has a constitution based on that of 1776, you had the Federalist and the Anti-federalist and one civil war. In the meantime, we have had the declaration of 1789, 5 constitutions and no less than 16 different regimes (Louis XVI absolute monarchy, Louis XVI Constitutional monarchy, First Republic, Convention, Terror, Directoire, Consulat, First Empire, Restoration, July Monarchy, Second Republic, Second Empire, Third Republic, Regime de Vichy, Fourth Republic, Fifth Republic). Out of these eleven were dictatorial/authocratic (even they don't last as much as the democratic ones), 3 were bloody. In addition, we have faced five revolutions and one major uprising (1968). The army turned on the government during the Algiers events and I'm not even talking of the Paris commune in 1871. In 1979, Georges Marchais (Then head of the PCF) publicly declared support to the soviet intervention in Afghanistan. When he did that,the man was not in Paris but in Moscow (They could have gone for the bet, it would have depended on the political situation in France).

Still, I agree with you and Leg, I'm just saying that there is another option and as the game doesn't cover this, you have some freedom while filling in the blanks.

Four political options for France:
- A right dominated government with a strong nationalist component: France declares neutrality and USSR thinks of it as a target.
- A right dominated government (as in 1995) and France joins with NATO.
- A left dominated government with a weak PCF: USSR might turn on it and France might declare neutrality but it ultimately joins NATO (quite rapidly).
- A left dominated government with a stronger/revived PCF: France declares neutrality and is a threat to NATO. US/NATO bombs it.

While neutral. If France is hit by NATO, it might respond lightly. If it is hit by the Soviets, all our missiles would have been flying after the first hit.

[Brother in Arms]

Hey everyone I am an extreme late comer to this thread and as I know continually abesent from this forum....Frankie Fisticuffs and I moved to Tennesee so I have been extremely busy....

Here is my Take on Britian and the its service rifle....Simple put the L1A1 would be thrust back into service immediatly. First lets consider the lifespan of an FAL type rifle. It is almost infinite, it is one of the most rebuildable rifles I have ever worked on. First you can shoot if for over 15,000 before the barrel is shot out. Secondly you can continually replace locking shoulders for a very long time so headspace errosion is almost a non issue and thirdly its not very difficult to rebarrel given you are qaulified to do so. The milled reciever alone would last easily 400,000 rounds before its worn out. So I don't see the L85A1 ever gaining much traction. Particularly with its many many short comings the Twilight war would command a rifle like the L1A1 not the L85A1. I think it would have failed early on and the L1A1 would continue in service for the duration of the twilight war. Especially considering new weapon prouduction would be non-exsistant.

Also Lets look at the caliber issue, if you have the L85A1 you have 5.56
as well at 7.62 for GPMG two calibers on the battle field is a logistical problem after the end of the world. Myself I would be more inclined to the more powerfull round because the 7.62 round is a much better round for a rifleman Its a better round for small unit fighting were taking less shots but more effective ones would be appropriate. You might not have machineguns at your disposal but if you have a few guys with L1A1's shooting at the same things (like the selous scouts often did) they can chew things up just as bad. 5.56 just doesn't have the penetration capabily that 7.62 does. Also Radway Green made many millions of 7.62 in the 80's. I am still shooting 1980's headstamped stuff today and it shoots great!!!!

I think supply being what it is soldiers would field whatever rifle they had been issued until no more were issued then the L1A1 would be the only alternative and be back in service...also since they are so durable I doubt they would be replaced by the AR-18 no real not do try to make a new rifle if your old standby is still working perfectly. The other option would be captured eastern bloc weapons if no L1A1's could be had...because the L85 would fail and com bloc stuff is good for the end of the world and would be laying around...Just my two cents as a gunsmith.

[Legbreaker]

I believe you've summed the situation up quite well there Brother, and not just for the UK but for most nationalities.
As we know, most countries do not immediately dispose of the replaced weapon, but place them in storage in case they need to rapidly expand their military for some reason or other - exactly the case in T2K.
Sure there's bound to be a percentage of those weapons which have reached the end of their useful life, but it's a relatively small percentage and can be generally discounted as a contributing factor on large scale weapon choice.
Also, as stated, weapons can be repaired and parts replaced. Given a decent metal shop, most working parts of a rifle can be fabricated as needed (it's no production line, but if you only need half a dozen new breech blocks or a couple of gas pistons for example...).

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

Hey everyone I am an extreme late comer to this thread and as I know continually abesent from this forum....Frankie Fisticuffs and I moved to Tennesee so I have been extremely busy....

Here is my Take on Britian and the its service rifle....Simple put the L1A1 would be thrust back into service immediatly. First lets consider the lifespan of an FAL type rifle. It is almost infinite, it is one of the most rebuildable rifles I have ever worked on. First you can shoot if for over 15,000 before the barrel is shot out. Secondly you can continually replace locking shoulders for a very long time so headspace errosion is almost a non issue and thirdly its not very difficult to rebarrel given you are qaulified to do so. The milled reciever alone would last easily 400,000 rounds before its worn out. So I don't see the L85A1 ever gaining much traction. Particularly with its many many short comings the Twilight war would command a rifle like the L1A1 not the L85A1. I think it would have failed early on and the L1A1 would continue in service for the duration of the twilight war. Especially considering new weapon prouduction would be non-exsistant.

Also Lets look at the caliber issue, if you have the L85A1 you have 5.56
as well at 7.62 for GPMG two calibers on the battle field is a logistical problem after the end of the world. Myself I would be more inclined to the more powerfull round because the 7.62 round is a much better round for a rifleman Its a better round for small unit fighting were taking less shots but more effective ones would be appropriate. You might not have machineguns at your disposal but if you have a few guys with L1A1's shooting at the same things (like the selous scouts often did) they can chew things up just as bad. 5.56 just doesn't have the penetration capabily that 7.62 does. Also Radway Green made many millions of 7.62 in the 80's. I am still shooting 1980's headstamped stuff today and it shoots great!!!!

I think supply being what it is soldiers would field whatever rifle they had been issued until no more were issued then the L1A1 would be the only alternative and be back in service...also since they are so durable I doubt they would be replaced by the AR-18 no real not do try to make a new rifle if your old standby is still working perfectly. The other option would be captured eastern bloc weapons if no L1A1's could be had...because the L85 would fail and com bloc stuff is good for the end of the world and would be laying around...Just my two cents as a gunsmith.

I'm reminded of why the British army didn't adopt automatic weapons till the 80's anyway. The British military has always been in the midset that the British soldier should be a well trained marksman. In the opening months of WW1 the germans thought the British had entire companies of machine guns because an Infantry battalion could fire so many accurate rounds from their bolt action lee enfield at a scary rate of fire.

Given a chance the powers that be would love to drop the 5.56, as many in the establishment where not happy with it and felt the round was forced on them by NATO.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

In the opening months of WW1 the germans thought the British had entire companies of machine guns because an Infantry battalion could fire so many accurate rounds from their bolt action lee enfield at a scary rate of fire.

So true that at the beginning of WW1, during a surprised engagement at Mons (Belgium). The sustained rate of fire maintained by British soldiers (15 rounds per minutes) led the German to believe that they were, in fact, facing dozens of machineguns.

[Arrissen]

In GDW's Traveler 2300 timeline France IS the major superpower on the planet, like it or not. 300 years post-T2K, after "The Death of Earth", up out of the ashes a warlord shall rise and her name is France. Why would this be the case if they were nuked as hard as everyone else? It's not like they're more industrious or anything than anyone else. They just simply weren't damaged as much as the other NATO countries. Working out why is the hard part, no doubt.

As for the L1A1, why is there any doubt that the Brits wouldn't have to break out their war stocks of SLR's? It is the only battle rifle that they have afterall and they are facing the biggest battle they have ever fought. And that's saying something for one of the most warlike nations on Earth. I mean with their history and all. The L85A1, at the time of the Twilight war really was a sad mistake. Sure it's a bullpup, compact and handy but British senior NCOs desparately trying to keep their men alive by this point would be screaming - begging, borrowing or stealing what they needed to stay in the fight and that would be the trusty rifle they knew they could always rely on. Someone once said that the most dangerous weapon in the world is a determined individual. And these blokes would be extremely determined, bred true over hundreds of years to persevere and get the job done, come hell or high water, for King and country!

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

In the opening months of WW1 the germans thought the British had entire companies of machine guns because an Infantry battalion could fire so many accurate rounds from their bolt action lee enfield at a scary rate of fire.

It wasn't just the British and not just WWI either.
In 1940 at the age of about 18, my grandfather (who passed away 18 months ago) was able to fire a full 10 rounds from an SMLE in 3 seconds....into a penny....at 50 yards....from the hip....
And that was during his basic training for the RAAF - he was tapped by the training staff to conduct rifle training while he completed basic. I saw him repeat the feat in the early 90's with my own eyes.

He went on over the next few decades (before his eyesight failed him) to win almost every contest he entered, usually with Possibles (perfect score) and almost always at 1,100 yards plus.

Seems unbelievable I know, but the trophies don't lie.

[Mohoender]

Leg you're Australian. At the time, it counted as British (In the way training was conducted I mean). Replace British by Commonwealth (or subject of the British Crown) and you'll have it right.

[Legbreaker]

British!? BRITISH!!!!????
Australian, through and through! Especially in WWII and even WWI to a significant extent!

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

In 1940 at the age of about 18, my grandfather (who passed away 18 months ago) was able to fire a full 10 rounds from an SMLE in 3 seconds....into a penny....at 50 yards....from the hip....
And that was during his basic training for the RAAF - he was tapped by the training staff to conduct rifle training while he completed basic. I saw him repeat the feat in the early 90's with my own eyes.

That's awesome. What a guy.