OT: China's new carrier

[Legbreaker]

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_Radar_WWII.htm
It would seem to me that before 1942, radar of any type was very rare in US service and was only installed on most ships in response to the events of December 1941.
It's also worth noting that WWII did not start in December 1941 - for most of the world it was several years earlier when the Germans were annexing their neighbours. For Japan's neighbours it was even earlier, almost a generation in China's case (Japan's invasion of Manchuria in September 1931).
As the Pacific theatre after the fall of Singapore was mainly fought by the US (but not forgetting many smaller nations such as Australia and New Zealand), it seems appropriate to leave out radars possessed by countries not directly involved in the region when discussing Japanese naval technology.

Something else worth pointing out is that the US had access to British and other allied nations research into radars and fire control. The Japanese were essentially on their own. Should the Japanese have had similar advances in technology available to them, the war at sea may have been much more bloody (as if the actual number of deaths weren't enough).

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_Radar_WWII.htm
It would seem to me that before 1942, radar of any type was very rare in US service and was only installed on most ships in response to the events of December 1941.
It's also worth noting that WWII did not start in December 1941 - for most of the world it was several years earlier when the Germans were annexing their neighbours. For Japan's neighbours it was even earlier, almost a generation in China's case (Japan's invasion of Manchuria in September 1931).
As the Pacific theatre after the fall of Singapore was mainly fought by the US (but not forgetting many smaller nations such as Australia and New Zealand), it seems appropriate to leave out radars possessed by countries not directly involved in the region when discussing Japanese naval technology.

Something else worth pointing out is that the US had access to British and other allied nations research into radars and fire control. The Japanese were essentially on their own. Should the Japanese have had similar advances in technology available to them, the war at sea may have been much more bloody (as if the actual number of deaths weren't enough).

People do tend to forget that WW2 started before America got into it. America had to play catch-up and it was only America's vast industrial base and relatively untouched economy that allowed it to do so. It also helped that Japan wiped out almost all the big gun battleships and forced America to adapt and in so doing master carrier warfare. Had the japanese sent their final wave and destroyed the US pacific carriers then the war would of had a much different outcome.

In the end America won WW2 with numbers, not quality. In Europe they simply sent in so many Shermans at the wehrmacht till the Germans simply ran out of resources. it was the same in the pacific, the Americans mass-produced simple, effective designs for destroyers and carriers and simply swamped the Japanese who could not replace losses.

In the 21st century it is America who has the superior tech but numericly inferior forces and the economic climate is making that situation worse every year. At the risk of coming across as anti-American, there has been an arrogant, self-imposed blindness on the part of the USA over the past few decades, especialy after the fall of communism. Many in America consider that they where victorious in the cold war and that it validates their doctrine. The truth is the Russians ran out of money before America did, the cold war crippled them economicly. America risks going into a second cold war with China and this time it will be America that loses out.

The cold truth is that America has become over-reliant on it's military technology and has become dangerously arrogant, underestimating her potential rivals. My own country made this mistake and we went from having the world's most powerful naval empire to the state we find ourselves in today.

[ShadoWarrior]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

In the 21st century it is America who has the superior tech but numericly inferior forces and the economic climate is making that situation worse every year. At the risk of coming across as anti-American, there has been an arrogant, self-imposed blindness on the part of the USA over the past few decades, especialy after the fall of communism. Many in America consider that they where victorious in the cold war and that it validates their doctrine. The truth is the Russians ran out of money before America did, the cold war crippled them economicly. America risks going into a second cold war with China and this time it will be America that loses out.

The cold truth is that America has become over-reliant on it's military technology and has become dangerously arrogant, underestimating her potential rivals. My own country made this mistake and we went from having the world's most powerful naval empire to the state we find ourselves in today.

Yep, all true.

[ShadoWarrior]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_Radar_WWII.htm
It would seem to me that before 1942, radar of any type was very rare in US service and was only installed on most ships in response to the events of December 1941.

"Most" ships, true. But the link that was posted proves what I said about the US having it on some ships (5) prior to the US being attacked. And as early as 1938 on two ships. The Japanese, OTOH, had been on a war footing for years prior to PH and had not made any appreciable implementation of radar into their fleet. Despite having access to German technology, and knowing that radar was widespread in the British navy.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

As the Pacific theatre after the fall of Singapore was mainly fought by the US (but not forgetting many smaller nations such as Australia and New Zealand), it seems appropriate to leave out radars possessed by countries not directly involved in the region when discussing Japanese naval technology.

Appropriate to ignore the UK Royal Navy, which had the most widespread usage of radar at the time Japan declared war on the UK and the US?

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Something else worth pointing out is that the US had access to British and other allied nations research into radars and fire control. The Japanese were essentially on their own. Should the Japanese have had similar advances in technology available to them, the war at sea may have been much more bloody (as if the actual number of deaths weren't enough).

The Japanese had had access to German radar technology. They chose not to do much with it.

The real point is that 95th Rifleman asserted that the Japanese had the most "modern" fleet in the world. They had the newest ships, but using the term "modern" is subject to some serious dispute, as it very much depends on what factors one chooses when defining "modern".

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by ShadoWarrior

"Most" ships, true. But the link that was posted proves what I said about the US having it on some ships (5) prior to the US being attacked. And as early as 1938 on two ships. The Japanese, OTOH, had been on a war footing for years prior to PH and had not made any appreciable implementation of radar into their fleet. Despite having access to German technology, and knowing that radar was widespread in the British navy.



Appropriate to ignore the UK Royal Navy, which had the most widespread usage of radar at the time Japan declared war on the UK and the US?


The Japanese had had access to German radar technology. They chose not to do much with it.

The real point is that you asserted that the Japanese had the most "modern" fleet in the world. They had the newest ships, but using the term "modern" is subject to some serious dispute, as it very much depends on what factors one chooses when defining "modern".

How many of those radar battlewagons where sunk at pearl?

Arguably radar was the ONLY advantage the Americans had during the first half of the war. Japan had superior carriers, superior carrier aircraft and their battlewagons where bigger and superior to anything the American fleet could boast. their cruisers where also superior, the only real advantage America had was in her escorts. US submarines where nothing less than a joke in the early stages of the war as they didn't have any torpedos worth a damn.

In an open battlewagon to battlewagon engagement the American fleet would never of stood a chance. Ironicly by sinking the big guns at pearl, Japan removed her best chance of winning a decisive engagement against the US fleet in open water. carrirs where only beginning to be understood and developed by the US admiralty, losing their battleships forced American admirals to rely on their carriers and develp them into war winning weapons later in the campaighn.

There is no way to get out of the fact that it was numerical superiority in carriers and aircraft that beat the Japanese, not quality.

[95th Rifleman]

On the subject of carriers, it was a bloody miracle that the Germans never really got into the idea. German carrier fleets couldof decimated the Royal navy and would of blockaded the UK ina way that the U-boats could never of acheived.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

On the subject of carriers, it was a bloody miracle that the Germans never really got into the idea. German carrier fleets couldof decimated the Royal navy and would of blockaded the UK ina way that the U-boats could never of acheived.

The German Navy did understand the potential of aircraft carriers. Hitler just didn't keep to the timetable. He invaded Poland nine years too early for a German Navy with carriers.

Webstral

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Webstral

The German Navy did understand the potential of aircraft carriers. Hitler just didn't keep to the timetable. He invaded Poland nine years too early for a German Navy with carriers.

Webstral

The plan was called Plan Z. The biggest drawback to it was it made mo allowances for the Royal Navy to react to the programme, oh and the war started early...

[ShadoWarrior]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

How many of those radar battlewagons where sunk at pearl?

Most.

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

Arguably radar was the ONLY advantage the Americans had during the first half of the war.

That, and having broken the Japanese naval ciphers. Both of which led directly to the Japanese losing at Midway to the inferior American ships.

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

Japan had superior carriers

Not really. They just a lot more of them.

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

superior carrier aircraft and their battlewagons where bigger and superior to anything the American fleet could boast. their cruisers where also superior, the only real advantage America had was in her escorts. US submarines where nothing less than a joke in the early stages of the war as they didn't have any torpedos worth a damn.

In an open battlewagon to battlewagon engagement the American fleet would never of stood a chance. Ironicly by sinking the big guns at pearl, Japan removed her best chance of winning a decisive engagement against the US fleet in open water. carrirs where only beginning to be understood and developed by the US admiralty, losing their battleships forced American admirals to rely on their carriers and develp them into war winning weapons later in the campaighn.

All true. See my point above regarding Midway.

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

There is no way to get out of the fact that it was numerical superiority in carriers and aircraft that beat the Japanese, not quality.

This is not an accurate reflection of what happened. The US was kicking Japanese butt long before the US achieved numerical superiority. Numerical superiority allowed the US to shorten the war, but the Japanese would have lost it even had the US fleet never surpassed the Japanese fleet in numbers. The simple fact is that the Japanese did not have the logistics to maintain their fleet and the US developed superior aircraft in 1942, which even in inferior numbers would have been enough to crush the Japanese fleet. The Japanese couldn't replace their losses at the rate they were suffering them, even before the US swamped them with numbers.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by ShadoWarrior

"Most" ships, true. But the link that was posted proves what I said about the US having it on some ships (5) prior to the US being attacked. And as early as 1938 on two ships. The Japanese, OTOH, had been on a war footing for years prior to PH and had not made any appreciable implementation of radar into their fleet. Despite having access to German technology, and knowing that radar was widespread in the British navy.

The Japanese weren't facing anything like the best the UK had to offer what with the UK itself struggling to survive back in Europe. Post Singapore, the UK no longer had any significant ability to penetrate into the Pacific either - that ocean was effectively controlled by the Japanese.

Originally Posted by ShadoWarrior

Appropriate to ignore the UK Royal Navy, which had the most widespread usage of radar at the time Japan declared war on the UK and the US?

Given that Singapore fell VERY soon after the declaration of war (only about 2 months), it is definitely worth discounting the UK naval forces when discussing Japanese naval capabilities - Japan just wasn't likely to meet the UK in battle.

Originally Posted by ShadoWarrior

The Japanese had had access to German radar technology. They chose not to do much with it.

The Germans themselves didn't really see how much of a game changer it could be. Why would the Japanese have been any different given that they were effectively uncontested rulers of pretty much half the world?

Originally Posted by ShadoWarrior

The real point is that 95th Rifleman asserted that the Japanese had the most "modern" fleet in the world. They had the newest ships, but using the term "modern" is subject to some serious dispute, as it very much depends on what factors one chooses when defining "modern".

Yes it is. The Japanese ships were modern by the standards of the time. A few short years later at the end of the war though and they were hopelessly outclassed. But that's not just technology, but in crew quality, especially aircrew. By the latter stages of the war, they'd been reduced from an extremely professional and capable force to having to resort to suicide attacks by pilots who barely knew how to take off (landing in many cases was not taught at all).

Anyway, getting back to the topic, China, should it so wish, could have a naval force at least the equal of any other on the planet in relatively short order and there's really not much anyone can do about it. At the moment however they don't appear to be all that interested in projecting power much beyond their borders so it's unlikely we'll be seeing any US style super carriers any time soon - there's just no real requirement/justification for them.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

By the latter stages of the war, they'd been reduced from an extremely professional and capable force to having to resort to suicide attacks by pilots who barely knew how to take off (landing in many cases was not taught at all).

That highlighted bit is a myth, BTW.

[ShadoWarrior]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The Germans themselves didn't really see how much of a game changer it could be.

If the Germans didn't see how much of a game changer radar was, then how do you explain why the Bismark had both sea and air search radars, and a better integrated fire control system than those on the Brit battlewagons it faced off against, allowing for both a more accurate and higher rate of fire?

[dragoon500ly]

There was a question earlier about how good the PRC's ASW capability is. It is primarily based on older Soviet-era sonar systems as well as a high percentage of western systems, primarily French.

The sub-driver in my office is of the opinion that the older systems can be easily defeated. Its the newer systems that concern him. Or as he stated, "its even money."

[dragoon500ly]

The Japanese battleline in WWII was not the most modern in the world...

The IJN had 4 Kongo-class battleships launched in 1912/13 and refitted in 1936. They were the fastest of the IJN's BB at 30.5 knots. They weighed in at 31,720 tons and were armed with 4 twin mounted 14-inch guns, 14 single mounted 6-inch guns (later lowered to 8), 4 twin 5-inch DP guns (increased to 6 twin mounts) and 20 25mm AA guns (increased to 94).

Two Fuso-class battleships launched in 1914/15 and displacing 34,700 tons and with a speed of 24.75 knots. Armed with 6 twin 14-inch guns, 14 single mount 6-inch guns, 4 twin mount 5-inch DP guns and 16 25mm AA guns (later increased to 37) The IJN modernizied them in 1932 but considered them to be too slow for front line use.

Two Ise-class battleships launched in 1916/17 and displacing 36,000 tons and with a speed of 25.25 knots. Initially armed with 6 twin 14-inch guns, 16 single mount 5.5-inch guns, 4 twin 5-inch AA guns and 20 25mm AA guns. After the disaster at Midway, the IJN converted these two into hybrid battleship-seaplane carriers. The armament was changed to 4 twin 14-inch, 8 twin 5-inch DP guns and 57 25mm AA guns as well as 22 seaplanes.

Two Nagato-class battleships launched in 1919/1920 and displacing 39,130 tons and with a speed of 25 knots. Armed with 4 twin 16-inch guns, 18 single 5.5-inch guns (lowered to 16), 4 twin 5-inch DP guns and 20 25mm AA guns (increased to 98).

And finally the two Yamato-class battleships, launched in 1940 and displacing 71,659 tons and with a speed of 27.5 knots. Armed with 3 triple 18-inch guns, 4 triple 6.1-inch guns (reduced to two mounts), 6 twin 5-inch DP guns (increased to 12 twin mounts) and 24 25mm AA guns (increased to 146 25mm).

Unlike the USN, the IJN fought the war with older battleships, most of whom were modernized in the 1930s and later had refits with radar and increased numbers of light AA guns. Of the twelve BBs they started the war with; 2 were sunk in 1942; 1 in 1943; 4 in 1944; 4 in 1945; 1 in 1946. Ten were sunk by US forces, one by an accidental magazine explosion and one survived the war, only to be a target at the Bikini nuclear bomb test.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

The Japanese battleline in WWII was not the most modern in the world...

The IJN had 4 Kongo-class battleships launched in 1912/13 and refitted in 1936. They were the fastest of the IJN's BB at 30.5 knots. They weighed in at 31,720 tons and were armed with 4 twin mounted 14-inch guns, 14 single mounted 6-inch guns (later lowered to 8), 4 twin 5-inch DP guns (increased to 6 twin mounts) and 20 25mm AA guns (increased to 94).

Two Fuso-class battleships launched in 1914/15 and displacing 34,700 tons and with a speed of 24.75 knots. Armed with 6 twin 14-inch guns, 14 single mount 6-inch guns, 4 twin mount 5-inch DP guns and 16 25mm AA guns (later increased to 37) The IJN modernizied them in 1932 but considered them to be too slow for front line use.

Two Ise-class battleships launched in 1916/17 and displacing 36,000 tons and with a speed of 25.25 knots. Initially armed with 6 twin 14-inch guns, 16 single mount 5.5-inch guns, 4 twin 5-inch AA guns and 20 25mm AA guns. After the disaster at Midway, the IJN converted these two into hybrid battleship-seaplane carriers. The armament was changed to 4 twin 14-inch, 8 twin 5-inch DP guns and 57 25mm AA guns as well as 22 seaplanes.

Two Nagato-class battleships launched in 1919/1920 and displacing 39,130 tons and with a speed of 25 knots. Armed with 4 twin 16-inch guns, 18 single 5.5-inch guns (lowered to 16), 4 twin 5-inch DP guns and 20 25mm AA guns (increased to 98).

And finally the two Yamato-class battleships, launched in 1940 and displacing 71,659 tons and with a speed of 27.5 knots. Armed with 3 triple 18-inch guns, 4 triple 6.1-inch guns (reduced to two mounts), 6 twin 5-inch DP guns (increased to 12 twin mounts) and 24 25mm AA guns (increased to 146 25mm).

Unlike the USN, the IJN fought the war with older battleships, most of whom were modernized in the 1930s and later had refits with radar and increased numbers of light AA guns. Of the twelve BBs they started the war with; 2 were sunk in 1942; 1 in 1943; 4 in 1944; 4 in 1945; 1 in 1946. Ten were sunk by US forces, one by an accidental magazine explosion and one survived the war, only to be a target at the Bikini nuclear bomb test.

Japan's biggest naval advantage over British and American forces at the beginning of the war were the quality of its aircrew and carrier capable aircraft, which were noticeably superior to their British and American counterparts, and its government was far more ruthless. With the exception of the two giant Yamato Class battleships Japanese battleships were no better than British or American battleships, in fact their fleet may have been on average older than the two main allied navies, and most would consider the later war Iowa Class a better and arguably more powerfull battleship than the Yamato Class.

The Japanese fleet was smaller than both the American and British fleets at the start of the war, although it was concentrated in the Western Pacific. Japan did had more operational carriers than either Britain or America, and some cheating went on about their dimensions during their construction as Japan was still bound to the terms of the Washington Treaty. But Japanese carriers werent superior to allied carriers at the start of the war, in fact the best might have been the British carriers which had armoured flights decks.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by ShadoWarrior

If the Germans didn't see how much of a game changer radar was, then how do you explain why the Bismark had both sea and air search radars, and a better integrated fire control system than those on the Brit battlewagons it faced off against, allowing for both a more accurate and higher rate of fire?

Its true the Bismarck was a fine battleship, probably the most powerful in the world at the time of its sinking in 1941, but whereas Britain and America had abided by the terms of the naval washington Treaty before and up to WW2, Germany and Japan had consistantly cheated, giving their capitol ships and even cruisers some advantage over them two main Western naval powers Britain and America.

Bismarck did indeed have radars, 3 x FuMo23 and FuMO21 radars, and German rangefinders, and gunnery control in general, was highly regarded. However her main armor deck was too low in the ship, leaving her vital communications and fire control systems vulnerable, and her fire control systems were knocked out early in her final battle against British heavy units. While German machinery tended to be too complex, and unreliable throughout the war. There are also questions about how effective her armour was, as its intersting to note that the British Rodney was instrumental in her sinking, despite being built in the 1920's and being considerably slower. Rodney quickly overwhelmed Bismarck with her accurate 16in gunfire, and pretty much pounding her into a flaming junk with some help from King George V, while Bismarck never hit Rodney at all.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by RN7

Bismarck did indeed have radars, 3 x FuMo23 and FuMO21 radars, and German rangefinders, and gunnery control in general, was highly regarded. However her main armor deck was too low in the ship, leaving her vital communications and fire control systems vulnerable, and her fire control systems were knocked out early in her final battle against British heavy units. While German machinery tended to be too complex, and unreliable throughout the war. There are also questions about how effective her armour was, as its intersting to note that the British Rodney was instrumental in her sinking, despite being built in the 1920's and being considerably slower. Rodney quickly overwhelmed Bismarck with her accurate 16in gunfire, and pretty much pounding her into a flaming junk with some help from King George V, while Bismarck never hit Rodney at all.

There were also a lot of concerns about Bismarck's underwater protection as well as her vulnerable rudder design, not mention the difficultly she had in using her engines to steer.