A Pro's Review of 2013

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Chicks dig big......

[AcesandEights]

Well, I picked up the PDF last week and immediately set about getting a printed copy. I printed it all up at the office and bound it myself (splitting the content somewhat unevenly between 2 sets of pressboard covered binders). Leaving the office that day, I now had two lethal bludgeons at my disposal

Now I can agree that a PDF is not my preferred medium and that some of the helpful shade-boxed content didn't print as nicely as I would have liked (probably easily adjusted by someone with better PDF & PC skills, than myself), but all in all I was very pleased with the presentation. Yes, some minor editing foibles caught my eye, but I see them all too often these days in large manuscripts pumped out by big name publishing houses, so I'm somewhat forgiving in that respect. I did want to circle them and give out a list later for correction, but I stopped myself

The art was hit or miss, but there was some really nice standouts and not an overabundance of art that would have unduly pushed up the page count.

As far as this whole matter of size, it's not like we're talking style over substance here, as both style and substance seemed evident in the final product, as far as I'm concerned. There was not--again, in my opinion--a lot of empty calorie content, here. And, personally, I'm happy with a fair level of detail. I was however left with the impression that the rules needed to be, perhaps, clarified a bit, maybe even include a better combat overview, but this would be in addition to the already existing content and not in place of it. I would love to see a one page flow chart for the combat system, as it would be played out, including bullet points for when some of the option rules come in to play. Maybe do one of these one page summaries for players and one specifically for the GM/storyteller etc.

Keep in mind I'm still wrastlin' with the content and rules, so I may have missed a few things, but I really did enjoy a lot of the bits and pieces I saw of combat, equipment and the like. I, too, would have liked a more detailed (specified) weapons sections. However, the equipment portion of the rules was nicely done and large enough to cover all the basics, I felt. Thank you for doing this level of detail, as it really cuts down on research, should I ever be privileged enough to run a campaign or one-shot. I really liked some of the option rules. For example, personal equipment/familiarity & also being able to sacrifice it for escaping an otherwise deadly wound.

Now we get to the time line/background issues and, I have to say, I did find myself kind of shrugging and saying to myself "Not quite the way I would have gone with it," from time to time, but I don't immediately discount a setting because of that nowadays. Having grown up with RPGs and played on both sides of the 'DM screen', I have a healthy respect for how plot points, alternate time lines and others campaign considerations can sometimes seem far-fetched when read by a third party. I feel this way when I read most people's stuff (even when I read it here ) , I feel it's usually a natural reaction for me to question how much people are editorializing when they are prognosticating. I guess I just accept nowadays, that there will be content that I will always feel I have to tinker with and make revisions to make it my own and something I feel comfortable with. In fact, I feel that such a thing is the natural consequence of being intimately involved in the hobby for so long, having grown up with it and learning that...wow, I can make my own house rules, I can write my own material, I can run my own campaign and it will fit my playstyle. I don't think there are too many people who have also been playing and running campaigns for multiple decades who wouldn't feel the same way.

In any event, I would probably fall into the category of player the designers discuss when they mention people who will always want to play in the old cold war, gone hot amongst the ruins of an irradiated Poland. The two cool things for me are:

1) I'd be more than willing to try a run at the new setting if ever given the chance.

2) I was looking for rules I was comfortable with in using in a classic T2K setting and I found them.

So, I can't say the product isn't fun to read or the material isn't useful. Far from it, for me.

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

HQ

That is just to say that I entirely agree with you on the comments you made on the review.

Hear hear - I second that motion -

To the T2013 guys - Full respect I'm glad your doing a fresh t2k game.

Why the hell not.

Keep up the good work and don't pay attention to criticism that involves people having problem with fine print and faulty internet connections....

With repsect....Lets keep it civil guys not civil-war......

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by Twilight2000v3MM

Chicks dig big......

yeah I hear that everywhere

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I hope you took me right. What I meant is that I don't think it is a monster book. Tegyrius did you understand it that way or the other way? As you might have noticed also, I haven't made much comment on the rules but as I said I'm not that much interested in rules.

Yep, that's how I understood your comments. Though I wish you had more to say about the rules, as I didn't work on the setting a lot.

Strangely, the comment we got on our game were almost word for word the same than the one I found in that "review" of his. Good for you, you seem better prepared than I was.

Years of writing for White Wolf have given me ample experience with nasty reviews.

By the way, at last some people finaly read it or so it seems. The initial critics were on the universe and now they are on the rules. I'm thinking about remaking it (translating it to english) and to be honest I'll rework the rules entirely. That thread make my day, people are still playing in our universe and they even talk about adapting that universe to other rules . I'm gone I have to say that to my co-author.

That's the ultimate measure of success in this hobby/industry, I think: people use your material.

- C.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by AcesandEights

Yes, some minor editing foibles caught my eye, but I see them all too often these days in large manuscripts pumped out by big name publishing houses, so I'm somewhat forgiving in that respect. I did want to circle them and give out a list later for correction, but I stopped myself

You're more forgiving than I am. I've been known to throw things across the room when I find editing errors in my own published work.

I was however left with the impression that the rules needed to be, perhaps, clarified a bit, maybe even include a better combat overview, but this would be in addition to the already existing content and not in place of it. I would love to see a one page flow chart for the combat system, as it would be played out, including bullet points for when some of the option rules come in to play. Maybe do one of these one page summaries for players and one specifically for the GM/storyteller etc.

Have you seen Overdrive's combat summary sheet over at the 93GS forum? It is made of pure awesome distilled into PDF form.

- C.

[AcesandEights]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Have you seen Overdrive's combat summary sheet over at the 93GS forum? It is made of pure awesome distilled into PDF form.

- C.

No, I hadn't seen it yet! I did happen to have my browser open looking for such at the time you posted (was distracted when I saw some tasty stats for the desert eagle )

This is a really in-depth and well done sheet...it'll go a long way towards helping me square away some details and get a feel for the specifics.

Thank you!

[pmulcahy11b]

You know, I've seen a review of the original T2K, about 20 years ago, using just about the same words and criticisms, in a Space Gamer magazine. Wonder if it's the same reviewer.

BTW, I'm looking over 2013 bit by bit as strength allows. It's surprising how quickly I get tired these days. I can do a little house-dusting and feed my guys (that's how I refer to my dogs as a group) and I'm wiped out.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

You know, I've seen a review of the original T2K, about 20 years ago, using just about the same words and criticisms, in a Space Gamer magazine. Wonder if it's the same reviewer.

BTW, I'm looking over 2013 bit by bit as strength allows. It's surprising how quickly I get tired these days. I can do a little house-dusting and feed my guys (that's how I refer to my dogs as a group) and I'm wiped out.

http://index.rpg.net/display-article...rticleid=12350

Didn't see his name mentioned in the summary.

Greg Porter considered it "A tragic waste of 18 bucks". I guess I know not to trust his reviews blindly. The 18 dollars that constituted that expenditure probably gave me more enjoyment than any other dollar I ever spent.

Hope you get your energy back soon Paul.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by AcesandEights

Yes, some minor editing foibles caught my eye, but I see them all too often these days in large manuscripts pumped out by big name publishing houses, so I'm somewhat forgiving in that respect. I did want to circle them and give out a list later for correction, but I stopped myself

There is a constantly updated erata at the 93Games Studio forums.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by kato13

Didn't see his name mentioned in the summary.

The reviewer at Flames Rising is my age. We woulda been about ten years old when that review was published.

- C.

[JimmyRay73]

Hmm, something about that review just makes me think "I'm gonna wait and see for myself." Kinda like when people said Daniel Craig couldn't be Bond because he was blonde...

Twilight has always had its good and its bad points over the years, I'll wait to pass judgement on the new version til I can see it myself. Gimme a week or two and then I promise I'll tell y'uns what I like and don't like. I'm hoping for more on the "like" side of the chart.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by kato13

http://index.rpg.net/display-article...rticleid=12350

Didn't see his name mentioned in the summary.

Greg Porter considered it "A tragic waste of 18 bucks". I guess I know not to trust his reviews blindly. The 18 dollars that constituted that expenditure probably gave me more enjoyment than any other dollar I ever spent.

Decided to follow up on Greg Porter since the name sounded really familiar and WOW!. He wrote both Guns Guns Guns and CORPS both of which I consider to be the best in their class as far as RPGs go. I really want to see his full T2k review now since I am finding it difficult to reconcile the fact that I really respect both works.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

You know, I've seen a review of the original T2K, about 20 years ago, using just about the same words and criticisms, in a Space Gamer magazine. Wonder if it's the same reviewer.

BTW, I'm looking over 2013 bit by bit as strength allows. It's surprising how quickly I get tired these days. I can do a little house-dusting and feed my guys (that's how I refer to my dogs as a group) and I'm wiped out.

hang in there man . hope you get more strength with the new year .

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

You know, I've seen a review of the original T2K, about 20 years ago, using just about the same words and criticisms, in a Space Gamer magazine. Wonder if it's the same reviewer.

BTW, I'm looking over 2013 bit by bit as strength allows. It's surprising how quickly I get tired these days. I can do a little house-dusting and feed my guys (that's how I refer to my dogs as a group) and I'm wiped out.

I also remember a review of the original T2K in White Dwarf, (which was published by Games Workshop iirc and at the time was probably the most widely read RPG magazine in the UK) which slated the original T2K for a whole host of reasons. Reviewer was, I think, Marcus someone...Rollins, Rowland, something like that...

And echoing the good wishes to you Paul...hope you feel better soon...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I also remember a review of the original T2K in White Dwarf, (which was published by Games Workshop iirc and at the time was probably the most widely read RPG magazine in the UK) which slated the original T2K for a whole host of reasons. Reviewer was, I think, Marcus someone...Rollins, Rowland, something like that...

And echoing the good wishes to you Paul...hope you feel better soon...

Might have been White Dwarf. These days I'm lucky if I can remember anything for 20 minutes, let alone 20 years...

As an aside, there was this female lab tech who's come up every two days to get blood and urine samples when I was in the hospital. She was so excited the first time she came up -- she said, "It's snowing in Houston! It's snowing in Louisiana! I wish it would snow here!"

I said, "Don't you remember when it snowed here in '86?"

She said, "I was born in 1986."

God I felt old...I was a 21-year old National Guardsman in 1986...

[Jason Weiser]

Paul...you're not old...just "very experienced" (from a guy who has a sister who's a college freshman and a brother who's a sophomore in HS).

[kato13]

Originally Posted by kato13

Decided to follow up on Greg Porter since the name sounded really familiar and WOW!. He wrote both Guns Guns Guns and CORPS both of which I consider to be the best in their class as far as RPGs go. I really want to see his full T2k review now since I am finding it difficult to reconcile the fact that I really respect both works.

The writer of the Space gamer review and the writer of review quoted by LAW are each credited with an edition of the same book.

Macho Women With Guns
1st ed by Greg Porter (1988) self-published
3rd ed (1994) BTRC
4th ed by James Desborough (2003) Mongoose Publishing

I would guess they have a similar writing style, if one chose to republish the others work. Your memory may have been better than you thought Paul.

[Grimace]

I read through the review, and the comments. Most of the comments were of the type that's so typical of the "shoot from the hip" thought patterns that permeate so many sites. People seem to be more interested in seeing themselves spout drivel than actually thinking about the meaning of their posts.

A couple of the comments did stand out, including the last one (at the moment) from Kevin O'neill. That name is SOOOO familiar, but I can't place where I've heard it before. I could have sworn he was a Twilighter from the old boards. Do any of you happen to recognize the name?

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Grimace

A couple of the comments did stand out, including the last one (at the moment) from Kevin O'neill. That name is SOOOO familiar, but I can't place where I've heard it before. I could have sworn he was a Twilighter from the old boards. Do any of you happen to recognize the name?

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/produc...views_id=18942

Here is a review at Drive through RPG. He says he discussed it on T2k forums but I dont remember the name and he is not on my MIA list.

[Earthpig]

Originally Posted by Twilight2000v3MM

Chicks dig big......

Bank Accounts

[Earthpig]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Might have been White Dwarf. These days I'm lucky if I can remember anything for 20 minutes, let alone 20 years...

As an aside, there was this female lab tech who's come up every two days to get blood and urine samples when I was in the hospital. She was so excited the first time she came up -- she said, "It's snowing in Houston! It's snowing in Louisiana! I wish it would snow here!"

I said, "Don't you remember when it snowed here in '86?"

She said, "I was born in 1986."

God I felt old...I was a 21-year old National Guardsman in 1986...

One of my good friends just retired from the National Guard.....people were the same rank as him,E-6, who weren't born on his DOR(date of Rank) ......You know it's time to get out then

P.S. Get better soon dude....It's no joy funning Airborne guys if they're hurtin'

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Targan

There is a constantly updated errata at the 93Games Studio forums.

http://93gamesstudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=952

Here it is in case anyone needs it.

Thought I had an addition due to the explanation of pre term background skills being expressed two different ways, but they really are the same.

(((9+Cog)-3) + (2*3 for Language)) = ((6+ Cog) +6 for Language)

Have only scratched the surface of character creation but it seems interesting and certainly addresses some weaknesses of the older T2k system.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Earthpig

P.S. Get better soon dude....It's no joy funning Airborne guys if they're hurtin'

Personally, I'm all in favor of kicking a man when he's down -- that's the best time to do it!