OT: Recruiting for a T2K game, in a different setting

[dragoon500ly]

The German 1918 offensive was always one of the great "what ifs" of the war. I've always felt that if it had been focused on the French only, that it was Germany's last, best chance of knocking France out of the war.

To be sure, when the BEF was hit, the German's enjoyed moderate success, but it was nothing like what happened to the French. It is widely believed that the actions of the AEF's 2nd Division at Belleau Wood and 3rd Division's at Chateau Thielly that really slowed the Germans down long enough for the French to get reserves into the line.

So what would have happened of the German's had focused on the French from the start? Or if the AEF was just a little bit slow in moving up?

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

So what would have happened of the German's had focused on the French from the start? Or if the AEF was just a little bit slow in moving up?

Or if they'd stayed after the British exclusively, after shattering the Fifth Army in the first round.

The game I mentioned (HMSGRD's Over There), has really intricate rules for an operational-level game. As it happened, French morale collapsed on the very last attack of the German player-turn of the 2nd half of July 1918. If it had stayed above 0 just that much longer, the arrival of more Americans would have boosted it up significantly. By that time, there were at least 3 US corps in the line, and at least that many more training up. A lot of US divisions were sent over there with barely basic training, with the expectation of finishing training under Allied assistance.

[dragoon500ly]

And the American losses in their early combat actions reflect the lack of training. Belleau Wood, just to name one, had the 5th Marines lauch their initial attack in four waves, right into interlocking machine gun fire. According to German reports, they never bothered to call in artillery support, just trench mortars and machine guns.

Considering how oversized US units were (platoon strength was 62!), afterwards, the average platoon strength was 20.

[LAW0306]

Where do you get your attack plan from for the 5th Marines? I would have to say that it did not happen that way. Read "through the wheat field". It explains USMC plans, personel and tactics. I had to read it in TBS in 2008 and also did a Masters paper on this for school.

[LAW0306]

Sounds like a good game.. Have some questions..


1. how is german and Hispanic army supplied?
2. how does the german navy access the atlantic with combined english and US Navys?
3. The united states is activating up to 100 divisions during world war I from NG and reserve units, How are they on there home turf in the defense not cutting them down in waves.ala turks in their fight.

4.The united states is the premier industrial up and coming power. teamed up with the premier on the top power england. how are they out produced here.

if i have spelling or grammer errors please excuse in a hurry.

[Legbreaker]

In 1914, Germany was a well established indistrial and military nation with a population of approximately 90 million.
In 1914 the US was still an underdeveloped frontier country with it's population spread across a very wide area. It's total population numbered slightly more at aproximately 100 million.
Given that the victor in Europe is likely to absorb the populations industrial capacity and military of the defeated (including France, Britain, etc), it's very likely the Germans and their allies, should they be able to cross the atlantic, could tromp all over the under prepared and dispersed Americans.
Given the additional 5 years (to 1919) and even accounting for war losses, it's still likely that the German alliance (after a suitable period of rest and rebuilding) would have more than enough combined strength to at least threaten any other country in the world should they choose to so.

It's a very interesting "what if" scenario. Unlikely certainly, but definitely interesting.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by LAW0306

2. how does the german navy access the atlantic with combined english and US Navys?

This is the key question. To make things work, something has to keep the Royal Navy contained. With the surrender of the French, the British are forced to withdraw the BEF. Italy, with the loss of her major ally, signs a cease-fire with Austria-Hungry. Russia is in the midst of the Communist takeover and has no intrest in any more foreign envolvements.

France with her major industrial regions occupied by Germany and the remainder of the country under a puppet government (Vichy), is out of the war. Her army is de-mobilizing and her navy is under German control. Some elements of the French army/navy fled to England and the United States or to her African colonies (Free French), but her ability to maintain and expand her military is in ruins.

Britain does not sign a peace agreement, but a cease-fire is agreed to. England is busy rebuilding an Alliance against Germany and a Cold War situation exists. The occassional fleet element may have an "error whilst firing a salute" but its more along the lines of glowering at each other through the binoculars sort of thing. England is busy building up for the next round.

The Kriegsmarine, in 1919 deploys 19 dreadnoughts, 6 battlecruisers, 28 pre-dreadnoughts, and 6 armored cruisers for her battleline, but the real threat is her fleet of over 230 submarines. With Mexico's cooperation, U-Boats are based at Mexican ports, bringing US bases under threat of undersea attack. At this time, there is no sonar or ASDIC (a hydrophone might be thrown over and someone listens while the destroyer remains stationary, this is state of the art underwater detection).

The US Navy, in 1919, deploys 17 dreadnoughts, 23 pre-dreadnoughts (almost half are the Great White Fleet ships and are in poor material condition) and 25 armored cruisers as well as 90 submarines of the Holland and S-class).

Numbers wise, the US Navy being on the defense has the advantage, so how are the Germans getting supplies over to Mexico....Germany and the United States signed a cease-fire. Like the German mission to Turkey, the German mission to Mexico does consist of German military personnel. Officially they were discharged from the Imperial German Armed Forces, imigrated to Mexico and are Mexician citizens (right down to their new names). It allows Germany the polite fiction of not being involved, merely "selling war surplus to various other countries", all nice and legal. And also allows them to throw a monkey wrench into British efforts to create a new alliance, with the US involved in a war against Mexico, with a isolationist government in place busy "defending our sacred homeland from threats closer to home", the US is not looking for another European involvement.

3. The united states is activating up to 100 divisions during world war I from NG and reserve units, How are they on there home turf in the defense not cutting them down in waves.ala turks in their fight.

To be sure, the build-up continues, especially with Mexico invading the south-western states. But shortages of every kind exist. The US has only been producing war material in large numbers for the last two years. Indeed, so strong was the isolationist movement prior to the decelaration of war in real life, that the Secretaries of War and Navy were ordered to not make any mobilization plans or any contigency plans for fighting Germany.

4.The united states is the premier industrial up and coming power. teamed up with the premier on the top power england. how are they out produced here.

To be sure, the build is underway, but don't forget that as far as heavy weapons, aircraft, tanks, and artillery, most of this was provided by the French and British because American industry was not on a war time footing. An example is the M1903 Springfield rifle, the standard issue rifle for the US military, many people don't realize that the vast majority of the AEF was not armed with the Springfield because of the industrial situation, they went to war with a rifle that was ordered by the British and turned over to the Americans, the M1917 US Enfield rifle.

And for those historical film buffs, in "Sergeant York", Gary Cooper carries a Springfield and a Luger during the big battle scene, York actually carried a Enfield and a M1911.

Hope this helps.

[LAW0306]

1)In 1914 the US was still an underdeveloped frontier country

( I dont agree with that. we had some of the biggest citys in the world...New york,detroit,boston,san fran,just to name a few and over the last 4 years of war we have tooled up real nice to make goods for england and france. also we have taken no damage and no loss of troops.)

2)The USMC report straight out of their historical center

(What historical center and what book., I'm a 20 year career officer so you have to come with facts..times...dates....

3)Navy

When it comes to navy your numbers are correct for 1914 not 1919 when the us had been building ships for 4 years gearing up I have a link for a masters paper on this subject if you would like it. remember this was the age of coal. where and when would the german fleet coal at coming to the east coast????? the gulf of mexico and the carab are american lakes ringed with spanish war bases....hard for me to see them winning a sea fight ...there ships would be worn out from the trip and out of gas. us fleet would be fresh with interior supply lines....also we own vera cruz the largest mexican port so the germans are fucked. the us wont let any power into the west at this point let alone let germany build supplys for a year for an invasion....the brits well you have them giving up. I have fought with leg on this board for 3 years!!! brits, aussies and jocks,mics and new zealanders dont give up!!!!! not in there dna. even if wrong they fight to the death. so brit fleet is still there sorry. they did not give up in world war one or any other time in history why would they roll over now. The won jutland why would they quit.

4)Shortages of every kind??

What would they be short of? Rifles every man in usa has one maybe even a pistol. it would be bad for any army coming to us. we have interior supply lines they have to come over the sea witch we control! the desert is a bad place to be let alone fight. we have all logistic atvatages....


5)the M1917 US Enfield rifle

As it entered World War I, the UK had an urgent need for rifles and contracts for the new rifle were placed with arms companies in the United States. They decided to ask these companies to produce the new rifle design in the old .303 caliber for logistic commonality. The new rifle was termed the "Pattern 14." In the case of the P14 rifle, Winchester and Remington were selected. A third plant, a subsidiary of Remington, was tooled up at the Baldwin Locomotive Works in Eddystone, PA. Thus three variations of the P14 and M1917 exist, labeled "Winchester," "Remington" and "Eddystone." Number built

2,193,429 total this was in two years.(dont think we will have rifle shortage)

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

This is the key question. To make things work, something has to keep the Royal Navy contained. With the surrender of the French, the British are forced to withdraw the BEF.

Why not simply have the British surrender also? That places a rather large navy under the control of the German alliance and certainly provides the possibility of transportation across the Atlantic. Added to the French navy and there's an unstoppable naval force, easily able to control the seas and provide safe passage for transports.

In 1919 the British and French economies would have been churning out millions of tonnes of war material, hindered only by the availability of resources. With the war in Europe effectively over, that industrial production could be stockpiled in readiness for the assault on the Americas.

The US meanwhile hasn't had more than a few short years developing industry to the same capability as Europe - twenty years later however it was a different story, although IRL the US still had to spend time and effort getting up to speed, and full production capacity certainly wasn't reached immediately. Industrially, in the early 20th century, the US was a sleeping giant - plenty of potential, but...

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by LAW0306

Where do you get your attack plan from for the 5th Marines? I would have to say that it did not happen that way. Read "through the wheat field". It explains USMC plans, personel and tactics. I had to read it in TBS in 2008 and also did a Masters paper on this for school.

The USMC report straight out of their historical center, it was pretty damning about the wave attacks and recommended the use of "pre-war skirmish tactics" instead, it also further noted that skirmish lines were used for the rest of the Belleau fight with a notable reduction in losses.

Based on other reading, the 2nd Division was trained by French instructors once it had arrived in France, which could explain the wave attacks as this followed regular military thinking of the time. Add to the mix that the Marine Brigade was commanded by an Army Brigadier General more focused on fast results and I can see the initial use of wave attacks. The Marine Brigade history, did not have good things to say about their brigade commander at Belleau Wood.