The Lowly SKS

[WallShadow]

One of Mark's Rules of Life:

There is no such thing as an obsolete tool or weapon, merely obsolete thinking used in their employ.

[Brother in Arms]

targan
I only said "lowly" because people always think AK before SKS. And they don't really consider it a modern weapon. I thought I would give it a little press for a change.

Personally I have 5-6 SKS's and they have been excellent rifles. I have shot 3 deer with my chinese SKS and it killed all 3 with one shot and they didn't go far.

Also they are often more accurate than AK's but that varies. They are certianly almost as reliable as an AK. I think they would be a very common weapon especially in the balkan regions where they were used very recently. Also they show up in russia and any of its sattelite nations.

Webstral
I don't think they would produce the SKS as its far to difficult to manufacture. It's made from heavy steel forgings that are milled ( you could cast them and mill them as the chinese did later or make stamped recievers which the chinese also did but they are rare.) It just uses lots of raw material and takes a lot of time to make them. Also it requires quite a bit of skill. It's much easier to fix broken M16s or anything in the US arsenal than to make an SKS from scratch. AR-18 makes more sese but still quite difficult to manufacture things like barrels and bolts. One armorer can refurbish many many M16's in one day if they have the parts.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

It's much easier to fix broken M16s or anything in the US arsenal than to make an SKS from scratch. AR-18 makes more sese but still quite difficult to manufacture things like barrels and bolts. One armorer can refurbish many many M16's in one day if they have the parts.

The availability of parts is the elephant in the room. At the risk of reopening the discussion on an assault rifle assembly line in Colorado before I've finished writing a proper contribution, the issue is much more complex than putting new parts into a damaged rifle. I know you know that, Brother, but it's worth stating as much.

At some point, pre-war stocks of spare parts are going to be exhausted. Speaking in terms of cantonments, large and small, this phenomenon will affect different cantonments at different times on a per-weapon (model) basis. Like every other machine, firearms have an average rate at which their parts wear out, depending on variables like use, maintenance, climate, and so forth. All things being equal, a firearm that fires more ammunition wears out more quickly than an identical firearm firing less ammunition. One can go down the list of variables this way. The point is that firearms break down over time. Firearms being used, exposed to the elements, and subjected to poor maintenance wear out the quickest, as we all know. Some firearms are more tolerant of abuse than others, which is one of the selling points of the AK-47. We should look at the M16, though, since the M16 is the American service rifle. I’m not deliberately excluding the allies; I’m picking the weapon closest to home for me.

I agree that installing spare parts in an existing rifle is going to be much easier than fabricating a new one. The availability of spare parts isn’t inexhaustible, though. Sooner or later, someone is going to have to make more parts if the stock of M16s in a given locale is to be kept serviceable. We can quibble about the timing, but inevitably more parts have to be manufactured. This includes items like barrels and bolts.

Of course, there are other alternatives. One can swap out inoperable M16s for other rifles. In some locations, comparable rifles will be available. In other locations, comparable rifles will not be available. For a time, working M16s can be consolidated into the highest priority units. Many possibilities can be imagined, but they are all rearguard measures against the advancing decay of the stock of M16s (and other firearms) in the US.

The real issue is cost effectiveness. Assuming that one has the capability of manufacturing things like bolts and barrels, what is the relative value of the total effort expended to fabricate bolts and barrels when compared to the need? It’s easier to put numbers to the former than the latter. The total effort expended to fabricate barrels would include acquisition of materials, labor in the factory, and so forth. The need is a bit more difficult to estimate. Clearly, there’s a value to having a standard assault rifle for the troops. Obviously, combat effectiveness diminishes when the troops are using a grab bag of bolt action hunting rifles of different calibers. But how does one relate the expenditure of effort to fabricate barrels, bolts, and other parts to the needs of the troops in the field in post-Exchange America? On a case-by-case basis seems to be about the only way.

At any rate, I’m increasingly inclined to agree that having SAMAD fabricate fresh SKS probably is not plausible in 2001. The manufacturing effort probably is better invested in making spare parts for the existing stock of M16s, plus captured Mexican rifles, liberated civilian rifles, and so forth.

[ArmySGT.]

There are two Gunsmithing schools in Colorado. Both have mills and lathes.

Trinidad State has a hand operated rifling machine, while School of Trades also trains farriers so they have forges.

School of Trades would be gone in a nuke exchange with the Federal center and the Capitol less then five miles apart each.

Trinidad is pretty sparse country but is rich in natural gas and coal. The coal fired power plant there and in Raton are were shut down decades ago because they are too dirty.

Railways pass right through each. Bring in specialists in forging and casting you could have an arms industry over night. There is a barrel maker in Raton too with three powered rifling machines. Bo Clark.

Trinidad could make 81mm mortar tubes on the five 13 inch lathes, while turning down barrels and doing chambering on the twenty 10 in south bends. Three B&S lathes could be turning out precision pins. The CNC mill could be turning out all manner of parts.

Finally the skills to make a champion benchrest rifle make sub-MOA sniper rifles easily, all you need are scopes.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

There are two Gunsmithing schools in Colorado. Both have mills and lathes.

Trinidad State has a hand operated rifling machine, while School of Trades also trains farriers so they have forges.

School of Trades would be gone in a nuke exchange with the Federal center and the Capitol less then five miles apart each.

Trinidad is pretty sparse country but is rich in natural gas and coal. The coal fired power plant there and in Raton are were shut down decades ago because they are too dirty.

Railways pass right through each. Bring in specialists in forging and casting you could have an arms industry over night. There is a barrel maker in Raton too with three powered rifling machines. Bo Clark.

Trinidad could make 81mm mortar tubes on the five 13 inch lathes, while turning down barrels and doing chambering on the twenty 10 in south bends. Three B&S lathes could be turning out precision pins. The CNC mill could be turning out all manner of parts.

Finally the skills to make a champion benchrest rifle make sub-MOA sniper rifles easily, all you need are scopes.

If I recall right, Olympic Arms got its start in Colorado Springs, and they are capable of making every part for the M16. I know they relocated to Washington State, but what I don't know is when, and do they still have a presence in Colorado?

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by Webstral

At any rate, I’m increasingly inclined to agree that having SAMAD fabricate fresh SKS probably is not plausible in 2001. The manufacturing effort probably is better invested in making spare parts for the existing stock of M16s, plus captured Mexican rifles, liberated civilian rifles, and so forth.

Fair point.

Would the situation be very different in Europe? Yugoslavia had been one of the worlds biggest arms dealer before the civil wars. Isn't it likely, that old weapon workshops would be reopened and used for the production of the SKS?

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

One of Mark's Rules of Life:

There is no such thing as an obsolete tool or weapon, merely obsolete thinking used in their employ.

True

Even in the 21st century the British army still train with the bayonet and have used it in combat, both in Afghanistan and Iraq. one notable example was in Afghanistan when Corporal Bradley Malone of the Royal marine commandos led a bayonet charge that broke a taliban ambush.
In Basra, Iraq, men of the Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders fixed bayonest when they ran low on ammo and charged a militia position.

Even in the 21st century world of high tech and precison weaponry, the bayonet has it's place. Goes for any weapon from sticks and stones to assault rifles, all you need is courage, discipline and the will to win.

[Legbreaker]

Psychologically speaking, the bayonet at close range is the superior weapon to a rifle. There's just something about sharp and pointy cold steel presented with purpose that puts the fear of god into an opponent above and beyond even sticking a 12 gauge barrel in their face.

[WallShadow]

Re: the bayonet:

To quote Lance-Corporal Jack Jones of "Dad's Army":

"They don't like it up 'em!"

[bobcat]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Psychologically speaking, the bayonet at close range is the superior weapon to a rifle. There's just something about sharp and pointy cold steel presented with purpose that puts the fear of god into an opponent above and beyond even sticking a 12 gauge barrel in their face.

the reason is while the rifle and shotgun say "im going to kill you" the Bayonet says "im going to come over there and kill you in the most gruesome manner you can think of"

[95th Rifleman]

The bayonet takes away the faceless aspect of war. You see the guy's face, see the determination and rage as he runs towards you and it leaves you in no doubt that this bloke is going to ram his bayonet into your body and keep stabbing untill you are dead.

I think this must be the real fear aspect of the bayonet charge, seeing the other guy's face. All the propoganda bullshit fed to a soldier/insurgent to stiffen their resolve and courage just disappears there and then.

[Brother in Arms]

Bringing it all back to the SKS thats another reason they are a great rifle they usaully have an onboard bayonet so you can conserve ammunition and horribly intimidate your enemies.

(also to the about about firearm and rifle production. Lets face it the AR-15 type rifle is the number one rifle produced in this country today. Even in real 2000 there were several companies in the US with massive assembly lines producing m16 ar-15 parts. One I would consider would be Bushmaster in windham Maine. Maine faired pretty well in the twilight war. Though they would probably be making all the arms for MILGOV)

Sorry to distract from the SKS portion of this thread.

[Webstral]

Although it hardly needs saying, I ought to preface my remarks with the acknowledgement that my ideas are not canon material. That much said, coastal Maine belongs to First District (USCG) in my material. The potential to produce M16-type rifles is most welcome among the Guardians--especially since the maritime environment is hard on the pre-war stock of rifles.

If one is inclined to go with the rudimentary material of Howling Wilderness, then rifles produced in Maine conceivably could be made available to cantonments along the Atlantic seaboard.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by bobcat

the reason is while the rifle and shotgun say "im going to kill you" the Bayonet says "im going to come over there and kill you in the most gruesome manner you can think of"

good investment in such an enviroment imho. Not all combat is going to " tactical" some of it is just going to be two starving guys squaring off over a moldy loaf of bread - being able to save a bullet by stabbing someone will make sense in such circumstances. All in all melee weapons will be more useful and more prolific.The bayonet is already issued and would probably be used a lot more than today . ( It is pretty much obsolete today - our unit didnt even issue them).

I suspect the club ( with / without spikes - a.k.a trench club) and the sharpened field showel would make comebacks.

[HorseSoldier]

A bayonet or just a spear would come in really handy dealing with aggressive feral dogs, as well. Lots of people who have access to a firearm in Y2K won't have access to enough ammunition to take pot shots at every dog (or pack of dogs) they run into.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

One of Mark's Rules of Life:

There is no such thing as an obsolete tool or weapon, merely obsolete thinking used in their employ.

I was just leafing through my favorite image dump site (I'll tell anyone who's interested via PM because it is mostly very NSFW, but anyway) and one of the images that popped up was a group of tribeswomen in Africa, all carrying various guns - the woman closest to the cameraman was toting a very operational-looking StG44. Ralph Zumbro, in Tank Sergeant, mentioned them coming up occasionally (along with Mp44s) in the hands of the VC while he was in Vietnam.

So, yeah.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I was just leafing through my favorite image dump site (I'll tell anyone who's interested via PM because it is mostly very NSFW, but anyway) and one of the images that popped up was a group of tribeswomen in Africa, all carrying various guns - the woman closest to the cameraman was toting a very operational-looking StG44. Ralph Zumbro, in Tank Sergeant, mentioned them coming up occasionally (along with Mp44s) in the hands of the VC while he was in Vietnam.

So, yeah.

Hell, I toted one in Iraq for a while. The things just keep working.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Hell, I toted one in Iraq for a while. The things just keep working.

SKS, MP44 or StG44?

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

SKS, MP44 or StG44?

MP44. Surprisingly, getting ammo wasn't impossible. Difficult mind, but I kept it fed for almost a month.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

MP44. Surprisingly, getting ammo wasn't impossible. Difficult mind, but I kept it fed for almost a month.

Wow, kickin' it ole skool!

[Panther Al]

You've no idea: I talked about in another thread 'lo ago, but when they took our tanks away we started doing dismounted patrols. Since the M1 only has two rifles, its interesting to decide who gets to walk about with a pistol (OK, we dismounted the 240's, but the point remains).

Did a raid in the Fallujah weapons market, and scooped up all sorts of things - usual AK and sov bits of kit, plus a sterling, and a pair of beat up MP5's - that was more beat up then the prize of the raid. The prize was the pair of MP44's and an Iranian MG3.

Since we already scored a MP40, and we did have fritz helmets...


When higher found out about what my tank crew was walking about with, shitting a brick is a bit of understatement. God, that first year of Iraq was a ton of fun before the PC crap started and everybody went mickey mouse with a vengeance.