Aircraft carriers in and after the Twilight War

[dragoon500ly]

Looks like you caught all of the serviceable decks, good work!

Only issue that I see is the air group for the USS Lexington, the Essex/Hancock-classes flight deck is too small to support the S-3. Most likely the ASW group whould have been SH-2, SH-3 or SH-60 helos only. I would also see the Lady Lex's training mission to be of more importance than bringing a marginal flight deck up to combat speed. Of course, after the nukes start being tossed around, that would rapidly change.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Looks like you caught all of the serviceable decks, good work!

Only issue that I see is the air group for the USS Lexington, the Essex/Hancock-classes flight deck is too small to support the S-3. Most likely the ASW group whould have been SH-2, SH-3 or SH-60 helos only. I would also see the Lady Lex's training mission to be of more importance than bringing a marginal flight deck up to combat speed. Of course, after the nukes start being tossed around, that would rapidly change.

I wouldn't have expected that, thanks for the info. Then, I would tend to replace them with refitted S2 Tracker. Might not be ideal in term of realism but I always loved the Tracker and Canada might have been willing to sale his fleet back to US. Or may be they are serviced by Canadian crews.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I wouldn't have expected that, thanks for the info. Then, I would tend to replace them with refitted S2 Tracker. Might not be ideal in term of realism but I always loved the Tracker and Canada might have been willing to sale his fleet back to US. Or may be they are serviced by Canadian crews.

I don't know about the Tracker reentering US service. This is from the 14th edition of The Ships and Aircraft of the US Navy.

"The last US Navy S-2 series Tracker ASE aircraft was discarded in March 1986. The last US Navy Tracker was an ES-2D configured as a range support aircraft. The last ASW variant was an S-2G retired from VS-37 in August 1976."

According to the 13th edition, that ES-2D was one of four surviving aircraft. So there would not be a lot of type-qualified pilots or ground crew remaining by the time the war kicks off.

The only issue I see with the Canadians returning their Trackers is, just what will they replace the aircraft with? Production of the Aurora would not be enough to cover the gap left by removing these aircraft.

[Legbreaker]

Thats a very good point about aircraft (and applies to all other tech too). Although the US might want the return of all the items they've handed over/sold to other countries, those recipient countries wouldn't have accepted/bought them if they themselves didn't have a use for them.
In other words, they're not coming back...

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Thats a very good point about aircraft (and applies to all other tech too). Although the US might want the return of all the items they've handed over/sold to other countries, those recipient countries wouldn't have accepted/bought them if they themselves didn't have a use for them.
In other words, they're not coming back...

Who ever said they are coming back? US still had plenty of A4 Skyhawk especially from USMC and I'm sure that a fair number could still be refurbished from storage. A few more could have been bought back as for exemple those from Kuwait. Last, I don't know if any were already operated by civilians or agencies such as NASA but these would simply be taken back.

When it comes to S2 Tracker, several were also available, France would probably have sold its complement back to US if required despite neutrality and more important, I stated that they were probably manned by Canadian crews. I never said they had been sent back to US. I might be wrong but having Canadian pilots operating from a US carrier providing escort to NATO supply ships over the Atlantic prior to the nukes doesn't sound that impossible or irrealistic (In fact, some crews might even be Australian, New Zealandese or Turkish). Of course, Australian, Canadian or Turks can all be from traitorous countries full of cowards refusing to collaborate fully with their allies. Just teasing this is left to French and Italians.

Still, most of the carrier complement would probably be made of helicopters. Harrier could be used as well but I think they would be put to a better use elsewhere.

By the way, finding pilots for these aircrafts would be the easiest of things and will not need much than a few hours of complementary training. I'm sure that by 1996, you simply had to shoot in a trash can to get about 10 retired USMC/Navy pilots who would have been more than happy and ready to serve again. I'm of course equally convinced that canadian pilots who had been doing fishery protection duties/under retirement would be as reluctant to such an assignment.

[95th Rifleman]

Realisticly, how long would the lifespan of a carrier be in a full-blown shooting war? They are the number one naval target, both east and west have a whole fleet of subs desighned with the single purpose of hunting and killing these things.

[Mohoender]

Good point Rifleman but to achieve what you imply you need to have the means and power to destroy them. In Twilight, USSR has lost this capability over the Atlantic by late 1996. If not for the major strategic mistake of NATO in June 1997, NATO's fleet to the Atlantic would have survived.

Then, survivability of an older carrier performing escort missions and focussing on anti-sub warfare is quite good while it can only be opposed by submarines. Moreover, the main target is no longer the carrier but the ships it escorts.

Amusing enough, I just checked the Wiki on anti-submarine aircraft carriers and here is what it states:

"Essex class during their careers ships fitted and assigned the CVS designation were ASW carriers with Fixed wing and helicopter anti-submarine aircraft and AEW aircraft, although for a short time some also carried an A-4 Skyhawk squadron for daytime combat air patrol(retired/scrapped) Fixed Wing CATOBAR and Helicopters".

I sware I didn't know and simply used logic. It appears that I came up with what seems to be almost the exact USN complement on that matter.

By 1980, this role was assigned to Tarrawa and then Wasp but, with these ships already busy, wouldn't the US Navy be simply smart and use what was available as it had always done in its past? I agree that putting the other surviving Essex might be tricky but Lexington was still ready to go to Sea by 1991 (as was Dedalo by 1989). Even if not assigned to combat duties, they are re-armed to some extend and assigned to aircraft transport. Then, however, it stands a good chance to be sunk.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

Realisticly, how long would the lifespan of a carrier be in a full-blown shooting war? They are the number one naval target, both east and west have a whole fleet of subs desighned with the single purpose of hunting and killing these things.

No one knows for certain (thank GAWD!), but a modern carrier battle group is going to take a lot of effort and a lot of luck to take out of action. Take for example the Saratoga Battle Group in 1993.

This consists of CV-60 Saratoga escorted by the guided missile cruisers CG-19 Dale, CG-34 Biddle, CF-51 Thomas S. Gates and CG-58 Philippine Sea, the primary ASW escorts are the destroyers DD-968 Arthur W. Radford, DD-980 Moosbrugger, DD-974 Comte de Grasse, DD-997 Hayler with the "figs" FFG-24 Jack Williams, FFG-26 Gallery, FFG-29 Stephen W. Groves, and FFG-32 John L. Hall. In support are the subs SSN-676 Billfish and SSN-705 City of Corpus Christi.

The Saratoga has Carrier Air Wing 17 embarked, this consists of VF-74 and VF-103 (9 F-14B ea), VFA-81, and VFA-83 (10 F/A-18C each), VA-35 (10 A-6E), VAQ-132 (4 EA-6B), VAW-125 (4 E-2C), VS-30 (6 S-3B and HS-15 (6 SH-60F and 2 HH-60H).

So what does this bring to the table?
Saratoga is armed 3 Mk29 NATO Sea Sparrow SAM launchers (72 msls) and 3 Mk15 Phalanx.

Dale is a "Leahy"-class 'double-ended' (two twin msl launchers) cruiser and adds 80 SM2ER Sams and 8 Harpoon SSMs.

Biddle is a "Belknap" class 'single-ended' (single twin msl launcher) cruiser and adds 60 SM2ER SAMs and 8 Harpoon to the battle group's defense and a
SH-2F ASW helicopter.

The Thoms S. Gates and Philipine Sea are both "Bunker Hill" class AEEGIS cruisers with 2 60-cell vertical missile launchers, this means that they can be armed with any combination of SM2MR Block III SAMs, Tomahawks or VL ASROC a typical loadout would be 90 SM2MRs, 18 Tomahawks and 14 VL ASROCs. In addition 8 Harpoon SSMs are also carried as well as 2 SH-60 ASW helicopters

Radford, Moosbrugger, Comte de Grasse and Hayler are all "Improved Spruance"-class destroyers refitted with a modified 61-cell vertical missile launcher. They add 24 NATO Sea Sparrow missiles, 57 Tomahawk and 8 Harpoon SSMs and 4 VL ASROC and 2 SH-60 ASW helicopters apiece.

Jack Williams, Gallery, Stephen W. Groves, and John L. Hall are all "Oliver Hazard Perry"-class guided missile frigates. Each one brings in 36 SM1MR SAMs, 4 Harpoon SSMs and 2 SH-60 ASW helicopters.

City of Corpus Christi is armed with 12 Tomahawk and 6 Harpoon SSMs and 20 Mk48 ADCAP torpedoes.

Billfish is armed with 4 Harpoon SSM and 20 Mk48 ADCAP torpedoes.

As you can see, the 'Lady Sara' and her escorts are in a good position to create a lot of damage to any Soviet air strike and have formidable ASW defenses as well. The Soviets (needless to say) can be expected to make a maximum strength effort to damage or sink her.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I wouldn't have expected that, thanks for the info. Then, I would tend to replace them with refitted S2 Tracker. Might not be ideal in term of realism but I always loved the Tracker and Canada might have been willing to sale his fleet back to US. Or may be they are serviced by Canadian crews.

I have thinked the the Canadain trackers would flying out of there old base at Summerside PEI. they would good to fly ASW patrol in around the St Laurent basin

[Olefin]

been looking at the S-2 Tracker and how it could have been brought back for service on carriers during the Twilight War - I would think the best place they could have been obtained from actually would be California -Cal Fire (formerly CDF) operates 23 of the upgraded S-2FAT Turbo Trackers that have the torpedo bays replaced with water tanks - not sure how long it would take to retrofit them back - but that would be one place the Navy could get them to use on older carriers

Marsh Aviation in Mesa AZ had a bunch of them there as well that they were retrofitting as fire tankers - so could be flyable ones there too or even ones that hadnt been converted yet

Also the US must have had a few left in operational status - we sold three S-2G to Argentina in 1995

FYI we also sold 36 A-4M/OA-4M and TA-4F modernized to the A-4AR to them from 1997-2000 - not sure if they came from the last USN squadrons operating the aircraft or from the boneyard - but thats enough planes to form a couple of squadrons to equip something like Hornet or Oriskany if they pulled them out of long term storage (for the V-1 timeline where the Cold War doesnt end and thus the Navy keeps them around) - or for that matter the Lexington

[cawest]

Originally Posted by Olefin

been looking at the S-2 Tracker and how it could have been brought back for service on carriers during the Twilight War - I would think the best place they could have been obtained from actually would be California -Cal Fire (formerly CDF) operates 23 of the upgraded S-2FAT Turbo Trackers that have the torpedo bays replaced with water tanks - not sure how long it would take to retrofit them back - but that would be one place the Navy could get them to use on older carriers

Marsh Aviation in Mesa AZ had a bunch of them there as well that they were retrofitting as fire tankers - so could be flyable ones there too or even ones that hadnt been converted yet

Also the US must have had a few left in operational status - we sold three S-2G to Argentina in 1995

FYI we also sold 36 A-4M/OA-4M and TA-4F modernized to the A-4AR to them from 1997-2000 - not sure if they came from the last USN squadrons operating the aircraft or from the boneyard - but thats enough planes to form a couple of squadrons to equip something like Hornet or Oriskany if they pulled them out of long term storage (for the V-1 timeline where the Cold War doesnt end and thus the Navy keeps them around) - or for that matter the Lexington

Mesa got the S-2s trucked up from Tucson. I have no idea what would be in Tucson in the 80s and 90s. I know that had a crap load of Grumman AF Guardians Bearcats and Tigercats.