Am I opening a can of worms here? I think I am...M113...

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

What sickens me about the guy is that I've seen reposts on YT - by him - of Jihadi videos showing Abrams, Bradleys, Strykers, Humvees and other vehicles/tracks being destroyed by IED usually with some bullshit in the description of ANOTHER POINTLESS LOSS BECAUSE THE ARMY REFUSED TO USE THE PROPER VEHICLE HERE. He got particularly vile about some early losses of AAV-7s early in the Iraq invasion. A pair got hit by RPGs and were total losses (as were the crews and troops inside) and he leapt on it making some kind of connection about how that somehow wouldn't have happened to an M113...

Yep, that's him. There some /k/ommandos from 4chan that google "G####n" because this whale poo can't help himself and cites it like it was fact and not his fantasy. So they go and egg him a bit and he goes coo coo for cocoa puffs with a quickness.

I misplaced my photo of a M113 used as a gunnery target. The .50 cal rounds penetrate one side, yaw hard, and embed themselves in the other side. It would still be lethal to anyone inside.

M113s aluminum armor was terrible at spalling. Any HEAT round would go right through and with aluminum's lower melting point more hot spall was splashed about versus steel.

The M113 was also notoriously deadly to passengers inside if it struck a AT mine. Enough armor to contain the blast inside.

We are on the M113A3 now and following the Israelis mods.

Personally I think the future for the M113 remains as a specialist vehicle.

Would be cool to see one with a Ripsaw suspension. Oh yeah.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

He gets trolled by 4Chan? Good, he deserves it.

[pmulcahy11b]

Yeah, but in training, the M113 is a really fun vehicle to tool around the countryside with! I have fond memories of driving them. And the tillers will really build up your upper body strength!

[natehale1971]

One thing about the stock M113 that gets me... is that it's armor is so damn light that a .50cal heavy machinegun punches throught it, but other nations have been doing variants of the M113 that are better armored and more flexible. I've thought about what happens with the M113 in my extended version of the 1st Edition timeline of Twilight 2000.

Namely being used by the Police, the State Guards and the border patrol (ie, United States Territorial Guard that in my setting was created by the US Congress in the years before the Twilight War). Jobs that were originally seen as needing lightly armored vehicles that would protect against small arms, and most would have felt wouldn't ever run up against heavy weapons.

I looked at what the Isrealis have done the many variants of the M113 and saw an extremely wide-range of specialty vehicles that would work in the kinds of roles that a paramilitary force like the US Territorial Guard (a land based version of the Coast Guard that focused on Boarder Defense and the security of National Forests and airports, basically they are the Border Patrol and less intrusive TSA in my setting).

I just can't decide if ALL those surplus M113's would be more valuable like that, or being used for scrap metal. Because after the nuclear exchanges i can see those M113's being federalized and brought back into the use by the military... because a lightly armored APC is better than none.

So I'm asking everyone here what they think. Would the M113 be better used by the US Army passing them on to Police, State Guards and the Territorial Guard? OR just sending them to be Scrapped?

Sending them to be Scrapped would result in money going back to the US Army... i just don't know how much.

But passing them on to Police Departments, State Guards and the US Territorial Guard would 'save money' by those agencies would not have to spend said funds on purpose built lightly armored vehicles (like we are seeing happen today).

So what do you think?

(sorry for hijacking the thread... but it 'sparked' this thought process, and bringing the thread into a discussion about T2k just seemed like a good idea)

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I just can't decide if ALL those surplus M113's would be more valuable like that, or being used for scrap metal. Because after the nuclear exchanges i can see those M113's being federalized and brought back into the use by the military... because a lightly armored APC is better than none.

So I'm asking everyone here what they think. Would the M113 be better used by the US Army passing them on to Police, State Guards and the Territorial Guard? OR just sending them to be Scrapped?

Sending them to be Scrapped would result in money going back to the US Army... i just don't know how much.

So what do you think?

<snippity>

In my "Orlando Joint Military Command" thing I wrote up last year (!) I've got the JMC with five APCs (an ex-Israeli MICV, an LAV-100, an LAV150 and two M113A2s (ex NASA)) and that gives them incredible tactical flexibility against NA forces from Southwest FL as well as Seminole insurgents (that and most of Central Florida's remaining population has "snuggled up" around downtown Orlando but there are still communities that need the cavalry periodically).

I think local MilGov (and probably civgov) Kampfgruppes would absolutely buy/beg/borrow/steal any armor they could get their hands on, with the Mexicans pushing through to Nevada in the Southwest, Division Cuba running around in central TX and marauders everywhere, I can't imagine them not using every available armor asset they have. Including functional museum pieces owned by collectors, to wit:

"Wellsir, that's a fine lookin' M48 you got there. Served on one in Vietnam with the 24th. You too? Small world, ain't it? Lissen, we got an offer to make you and your family. How'd you like three squares a day, a bunch of grease monkeys to help you keep that and that halftrack running, and a bandit-free perimeter to live in?" Then suddenly Joe the slightly odd guy who owns his own tank is now Joe the military contractor for MilGov's 11th Provisional Armored Cavalry Company in Valdosta, GA...

[copeab]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

"Wellsir, that's a fine lookin' M48 you got there. Served on one in Vietnam with the 24th. You too? Small world, ain't it? Lissen, we got an offer to make you and your family. How'd you like three squares a day, a bunch of grease monkeys to help you keep that and that halftrack running, and a bandit-free perimeter to live in?" Then suddenly Joe the slightly odd guy who owns his own tank is now Joe the military contractor for MilGov's 11th Provisional Armored Cavalry Company in Valdosta, GA...

You have a higher view of MilGov than I do. I picture it more like:

"That M48's operational? Got an offer to make you. You give it to us and we don't kill you and your sons and rape your womenfolk and then take them with us as comfort girls. Sound like a deal?"

Not that CivGov would give a better offer.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by copeab

You have a higher view of MilGov than I do. I picture it more like:

"That M48's operational? Got an offer to make you. You give it to us and we don't kill you and your sons and rape your womenfolk and then take them with us as comfort girls. Sound like a deal?"

Not that CivGov would give a better offer.

Well it's the "Gov" part that I thi...wait, let me start over.

After the war, I think both sides are going to be so needful of the people's support for whatever comes after things settle down that they're going to try more carrot and less stick. Yeah, an answer of "Get off my lawn, you gub'mint folks!" would probably be met with your response, though...

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by copeab

You have a higher view of MilGov than I do. I picture it more like:

"That M48's operational? Got an offer to make you. You give it to us and we don't kill you and your sons and rape your womenfolk and then take them with us as comfort girls. Sound like a deal?"

Not that CivGov would give a better offer.

In your world maybe... I don't see something like that happening. New America yes. MilGov... Not so much, they'd see the person who has it as either knowing how to operate or use it. And a resource they would want to use. While CivGov would just come in and take it and anything else they found they wanted with the statement of "You shouldn't have these weapons, and for the welfare and betterment of everyone we are confiscating this" and there are all those FEMA regs support me on that feeling.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

One thing about the stock M113 that gets me... is that it's armor is so damn light that a .50cal heavy machinegun punches throught it, but other nations have been doing variants of the M113 that are better armored and more flexible. I've thought about what happens with the M113 in my extended version of the 1st Edition timeline of Twilight 2000.

Namely being used by the Police, the State Guards and the border patrol (ie, United States Territorial Guard that in my setting was created by the US Congress in the years before the Twilight War). Jobs that were originally seen as needing lightly armored vehicles that would protect against small arms, and most would have felt wouldn't ever run up against heavy weapons.

Jobs better suited to lightly armored WHEELED vehicles. Tracks are maintenance intensive and burn through to much fuel for security patrols.

I could see the Border patrol using M113 is the roughest terrain or the most dangerous areas.

The .gov could contract from Loomis (makes their own armored cars) to build security vehicles.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Jobs better suited to lightly armored WHEELED vehicles. Tracks are maintenance intensive and burn through to much fuel for security patrols.

I could see the Border patrol using M113 is the roughest terrain or the most dangerous areas.

The .gov could contract from Loomis (makes their own armored cars) to build security vehicles.

Seems like the M1117 (Successor to the Cadillac Gage Commando) might be a good fit for what you are suggesting.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Ronin

Seems like the M1117 (Successor to the Cadillac Gage Commando) might be a good fit for what you are suggesting.

It is a V-150. Hasn't changed all that much since the XM706.

Ironically, during my time in Iraq the MP Companies with these worked in Baghdad protecting convoys to and from BIAP to the Green Zone.

While we escorted convoys from Talil AB to BIAP or the fuel depot (civilian) in Mahmudiyah. Using M114s and M1025s.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ground/asv.htm

I am thinking that by this late in Twilight, the factory is nuked or running full tilt to supply U.S. Allies like Portugal and Spain with replacement parts and vehicles. So a civilian source making armored cars on civilian chassis would be available and provide what is adequate for the task.

[Legbreaker]

Used properly, the M113 is adequate on most battlefields. With a proper crew using the terrain, and NOT acting like a tank (ie rolling over the top of heavily armed opponents) the '13 performs quite well.
Basically, if an enemy is known to possess anything heavier than 7.62, the '13s should stay well back and let the infantry destroy the heavy weapons. Hull down and providing fire support once they've dropped the infantry off is the best way to use them in that situation.
Should an enemy be armed with nothing more than rifles and medium machineguns, then the '13 can roll in and crush the enemy (litterally!)

Just because a vehicle has light armour, doesn't make it useless on the battlefield. The tactics have to be adjusted of course, and the commanders need to be aware of the limitations of their vehicles.