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#121
10-04-2011, 03:59 PM
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#122
10-11-2011, 02:38 AM
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__________________
the best course of action when all is against you is to slow down and think critically about the situation. this way you are not blindly rushing into an ambush and your mind is doing something useful rather than getting you killed.
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#123
10-11-2011, 07:24 AM
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Maybe it's because I'm working graveyard and my brain is warping. As far as the M113 goes Imagine an ACAV model with M134 insted of M60s. I did that for one game and With the scirmish rules of that game until an RPG got the thing it was mopping the floor with ever communist revolutionary it encountered. Yes it was abusing a rule about useing Miniguns as you chose two point and drew a line between them. Anything on that like not under cover died instantly.
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#124
10-11-2011, 04:48 PM
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Australians in Vietnam played around with various weapons fittouts for their M113s and found the M134 to be total overkill on ground mounts. It was akin to firing 10 M60 machineguns all at the same point - effective yes, but a complete waste of firepower and ammunition.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#125
10-11-2011, 05:09 PM
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#126
10-11-2011, 05:16 PM
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#127
10-11-2011, 06:03 PM
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One Australian foot mobile infantry company went into the greatest battle in Vietnam with "first line" ammunition. That is, 60 rounds per SLR and 600 per M60 (9 total in the company).
They were attacked during a thunder storm (ruling out air support) in a rubber plantation towards the end of a several day long patrol by 2,000-3,000 NVA... ...and won. 
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#128
10-11-2011, 06:49 PM
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__________________
I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
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#129
10-11-2011, 07:37 PM
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#130
10-11-2011, 08:13 PM
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That wasn't the biggest problem though, at that time magazines were considered to be part of the weapon and their issue was tightly controlled. Most infantry soldiers would be issued 5 mags for their L1A1 SLR but damage could mean they had only 4 or 3 to use (you'd be held accountable for the mags and expected to pay for the repair/re-issue if the damage or loss was considered to be caused by negligence). The Battle of Long Tan to which Legbreaker is referring started out as a light patrol so most soldiers had between 3 to 5 mags for the SLR. The canny few who were able to acquire more mags were always very careful about when and where they used them because ammo was also strictly controlled and you'd be hauled over the coals to explain why you had more than your allocation. As a result of the shitfight that Long Tan became, the army looked at the issuing of mags and ammo for wartime use and drastically changed the scale of issue. I recall that during the 1980s, infantry soldiers would likely be issued with 7 SLR mags during peacetime training but during wartime it could be as many as 11 plus they would be expected to carry extra rounds in their packs to refill their mags.
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#131
10-11-2011, 08:52 PM
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__________________
If you run out of fuel, become a pillbox. If you run out of ammo, become a bunker. If you run out of time, become a hero.
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#132
10-11-2011, 09:33 PM
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Some of the weapons recovered from the field the next day included carriage mounted DShKs, RPGs, grenades, numerous types of rifles, and I think if memory serves, a light mortar. This is AFTER the NVA did their usual night time cleanup.
I know one of the men who was on the ground that day (became my Battalion Padre), as well as a number of other Vietnam vets. A brave/crazy RAAF Huey pilot flew out in the storm (nearly crashed a couple of times) to drop ammo through the trees. If it hadn't been for the noise on the ground, the lightning, and thunder they'd probably have been noticed by a lot more enemy and shot down. As it was that pilot helped save the men on the ground just as they were running out of ammo. According to the Padre, the machineguns were firing so much after resupply you could see the bullets through the barrel. All but three of the guns seized up from the heat. A relief force of another infantry company mounted in M113s arrived around dusk after loosing several vehicles in a flooded stream. None of the vehicles at that time had an intercom system so the TC communicated with the driver through strings attached to the drivers lapels - pull on the left string to go left, etc just like a set of reigns. When the '13s arrived the NVA were thick on the ground. The TCs were in some cases fighting hand to hand (while mounted!) and often didn't even have time to clear stoppages in their machineguns (having to switch to the coax or F1 SMG when the coax went down, or die). The vehicles themselves were used as weapons, driving over and crushing the enemy. A nod must be given to the New Zealand MFC attached to CHQ. He walked rounds from the 105s right onto the perimeter but not one Australian was hit. He attracted accusations after the battle (from those who weren't there) that some of the Australian casualties were from artillery, however this was disproven. The artillerymen did a damn fine job too, rapidly exhausting the ready supply of rounds. Cooks, clerks, drivers, and everyone else available lent a hand haulling additional ammo up and unpacking it for the firing line. From memory, about a thousand rounds were fired from 6(?) guns during the battle. Due to the weather, air support was impossible. Two American jets were loitering in the area at the time and available, but could not be used on the battlefield itself. They unloaded on an area a few miles away which was later found to have been a staging area for the NVA reserve force (not included in the 2-3,000 actually on the field). It was later found the attacking force were intending to strike at the Australian base and were strong enough to seriously threaten the entire task force of a battalion plus artillery, APCs and supporting units. After that battle and the ammo restrictions were lifted, some soldiers had to have their packs inspected before leaving the wire to ensure they weren't just full of ammo and actually had enough food to sustain them. It wasn't uncommon for an SLR armed rifleman to be carrying several hundred rounds and each section (nine men) carrying several thousand rounds of link for the M60.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#133
10-11-2011, 10:11 PM
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Good lord, talk about a major clusterfuck and a miracle all in one. Glad to see they carried away at least a few lessons from that.
__________________
"The use of force is always an answer to problems. Whether or not it's a satisfactory answer depends on a number of things, not least the personality of the person making the determination. Force isn't an attractive answer, though. I would not be true to myself or to the people I served with in 1970 if I did not make that realization clear." - David Drake
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#134
10-11-2011, 10:15 PM
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__________________
"The use of force is always an answer to problems. Whether or not it's a satisfactory answer depends on a number of things, not least the personality of the person making the determination. Force isn't an attractive answer, though. I would not be true to myself or to the people I served with in 1970 if I did not make that realization clear." - David Drake
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#135
10-11-2011, 10:40 PM
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Of course the massive defeat the NVA suffered might have helped there. After that battle, they redirected their efforts towards the "softer" targets the Americans represented. 
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#136
10-11-2011, 10:40 PM
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Great account, Leg. I'm sure the Australian troops were practicing good fire discipline to make the most of their available ammunition.
When on patrol, I took 15 magazines with me. I never intended to use that many; I'm not a good marksman, but for whatever reason I have the self-control to press the trigger only on a good sight picture in close quarters combat. Too many of my comrades, however, seem to view the 3-round burst as a limit to be overcome with by trigger-pulling. In the event, I wanted to have extra ammo to cross-level.
__________________
"We're not innovating. We're selectively imitating." June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.
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#137
10-11-2011, 10:58 PM
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Speaking of the brave/crazy RAAF Huey pilot, he actually flew to the area not just during a monsoon, but right after the fire missions were sent in, flying in as rounds were impacting the target area on one or two occasions
Then he flew down to tree-top level so that they could drop ammo crates into what he hoped was the centre of the Australian position.
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#138
10-11-2011, 11:26 PM
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I would hope they at least awarded him with SOMETHING for willing to be such a lunatic.
__________________
"The use of force is always an answer to problems. Whether or not it's a satisfactory answer depends on a number of things, not least the personality of the person making the determination. Force isn't an attractive answer, though. I would not be true to myself or to the people I served with in 1970 if I did not make that realization clear." - David Drake
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#139
10-11-2011, 11:54 PM
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He wasn't alone. The RSM (Regimental Sergeant Major - outranks GOD!) was in the back, kicking out the ammo.
Another point about that particular pilot is his aircraft wasn't armed. It was only there because he'd flown in a couple of entertainers who were supposed to be putting on a show that night. Apparently the men on the ground could hear the music during brief breaks in the firefight - at least in the early stages before it became a full blown fight for survival and the show was called off.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#140
10-12-2011, 04:57 AM
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__________________
 "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#141
10-12-2011, 05:55 AM
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To me, accounts of the Battle of Long Tan should be required reading for anyone who even dreams about leading more than two men in battle. What they achieved against such overwhelming odds, and how the entire task force pulled together to do exactly what was needed of them is just inspiring.
And to have lost only 18 dead, all of which were recovered in the morning with most still in their firing positions looking over their rifles is just mind boggling considering the numbers ranged against them. It is impossible to express the admiration and respect I have for those men, many of which were only 21 year old conscripts at the time.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#142
10-12-2011, 06:58 AM
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And a well earned salute to some damned tough Aussie bastards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
__________________
The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.
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#143
10-13-2011, 02:38 AM
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As we've sidetracked into Australian military history, was wondering if anyone has read Kokoda by Peter FitzSimmons? Next military title in my two read list.
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#144
10-13-2011, 04:33 AM
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__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#145
10-13-2011, 06:47 AM
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since we've wander into the aussy military history i might as well post this little ditty i found
 We are the Anzac army, The A.N.Z.A.C., We cannot shoot, we don't salute, what  good are we?And when we go to ber-lin The Kaiser he will say, "Hoch, Hoch! Mein Gott; what a odd lotTo get six bob a day. yes it was censored when i found it please don't send a kangaroo assassin after me (though one would make an awesome pet  )
__________________
the best course of action when all is against you is to slow down and think critically about the situation. this way you are not blindly rushing into an ambush and your mind is doing something useful rather than getting you killed.
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#146
10-13-2011, 08:00 AM
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Besides the fact it's very offensive and somewhat insulting, it's also inaccurate.
Most of the soldiers I've served with were damn fine shots (you've only got to look at Long Tan for combat evidence of that), and even the support troops know how to hit the target consistently. I'm guessing that was WWI era German propaganda?
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#147
10-13-2011, 09:04 AM
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I've always thought that ditty was amusing rather than insulting.
By the accounts I've read it was composed by some Aussie or Kiwi wag during the early years of WW1 and it was sung to the tune of "The Church's One Foundation", a Christian hymn from the late 1800s. It seems to have originated in the Dardanelles campaign although I've also seen articles that state it was during the Middle East campaign and another that claims it was from the Western Front. In particular, the reference to "six bob a day" is peculiarly Brit/Aussi/Kiwi and is unlikely to have been understood by the Germans at the time. Variations include "We are the ragtime army" This piece is a typical Aussie/Kiwi case of self-mockery to mock the British attitude that the ANZACs were not good soldiers because they had little respect for military formality (and particularly the rigid British attitudes towards class/social standing). The British changed their attitudes towards the "damned colonials" by the end of that war. As for the censoring, the removed words are that great Australian adjective 'bloody' (and no it doesn't refer to that red liquid sloshing around in your veins!)
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#148
10-13-2011, 09:08 AM
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SSC is right. It's a song about ANZACs, by ANZACs. Nothing to get upset about. And the censorship is a waste of time. Very mild profanity there, not even all that offensive at the time (unless you were in the presence of ladies
).
__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#149
10-13-2011, 11:41 AM
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So, anybody can help me out?
__________________
I'm from Germany ... PM me, if I was not correct. I don't want to upset anyone! "IT'S A FREAKIN GAME, PEOPLE!"; Weswood, 5-12-2012
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#150
10-13-2011, 11:56 AM
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A bob is a shilling which equals twelve old pence. There were twenty shillings to the pound. Old money hasn't been used in the UK since, I think 1972 when we went decimal.
Another WW1 ditty that I particularly enjoy was: I don't want to join the army, I don't want to go to war. Oh, I'd rather stay at home, And from there no longer roam. Living off the earnings of a high class whore. Sentiments I'm sure that many of us can empathise with. More of the old songs can be found here, some use the F-bomb. http://faculty.buffalostate.edu/fish...ongs/les01.htm Last edited by simonmark6; 10-13-2011 at 12:02 PM.
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