T-90 vs Abrams

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Grimace

Look at history of superior defense tanks like the German King Tiger as an example of what superior weapons and defense, but inferior numbers can do in ensuring victory.

The Tiger II also had an unreliable transmission that often left it immobile. And, for some unfathomable reason, the Germans used it to spearhead offensive operations during the Battle of the Bulge (Germany would have been better off deploying all their King Tigers on the Eastern Front).

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by copeab

The Tiger II also had an unreliable transmission that often left it immobile. And, for some unfathomable reason, the Germans used it to spearhead offensive operations during the Battle of the Bulge (Germany would have been better off deploying all their King Tigers on the Eastern Front).

Same with the Panzer Brigades. Those formations was tailor made for eastern front conditions with what, in hindsight, was the perfect balance of all the arms in a small agile package. On the eastern front they would have performed very well. But, with the invasion, they was force fed into the grinder that was bocage country. Also, I think they would have been much better off having the 78 SturmDivision in bocage country instead of Orsha on the eastern front, and the Lehr on the eastern front instead of the western. In the initial phases of overlord, the Panzer Division count vs. PanzerGrenadier Division count was obscenely out of balance (Something like 9 to 1, but I don't have my sources handy) Totally the wrong force balance for the conditions.


Which makes one wonder how overlord would have fared with a more reasonable mix of forces on the part of the Germans.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Same with the Panzer Brigades. Those formations was tailor made for eastern front conditions with what, in hindsight, was the perfect balance of all the arms in a small agile package. On the eastern front they would have performed very well. But, with the invasion, they was force fed into the grinder that was bocage country.

I'd need to check, but I'm pretty sure the 100-series brigades didn't show up on the Western Front until the early September counterattacks. They weren't even authorized until very late July or early August. That was well after the bocage fighting, they were shattered in the tail end of the pursuit phase in eastern France.

In the initial phases of overlord, the Panzer Division count vs. PanzerGrenadier Division count was obscenely out of balance (Something like 9 to 1, but I don't have my sources handy) Totally the wrong force balance for the conditions.

Which makes one wonder how overlord would have fared with a more reasonable mix of forces on the part of the Germans.

I think part of the German force mix was to create an armored attack force, to drive the landings back into the sea. The restricted terrain and hindrances created by Allied airpower were a bit of a surprise to the German command.

Having said that, PG divisions, set up for defense would seem more ideal for the West. As it worked out, since the panzer divisions were rarely at full tank strength, I think it worked out the same.

I'm playing the Germans in a game of GMT's Battle for Normandy, and what I really need is infantry! If I had a few more divisions of that, I could mass the panzers and try to attack with them. As it is, I've got 3 panzer & 1 PG divisions holding the line in front of the British, too spread out to hit much of anything.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

I'd need to check, but I'm pretty sure the 100-series brigades didn't show up on the Western Front until the early September counterattacks. They weren't even authorized until very late July or early August. That was well after the bocage fighting, they were shattered in the tail end of the pursuit phase in eastern France.




I think part of the German force mix was to create an armored attack force, to drive the landings back into the sea. The restricted terrain and hindrances created by Allied airpower were a bit of a surprise to the German command.

Having said that, PG divisions, set up for defense would seem more ideal for the West. As it worked out, since the panzer divisions were rarely at full tank strength, I think it worked out the same.

I'm playing the Germans in a game of GMT's Battle for Normandy, and what I really need is infantry! If I had a few more divisions of that, I could mass the panzers and try to attack with them. As it is, I've got 3 panzer & 1 PG divisions holding the line in front of the British, too spread out to hit much of anything.

Now that I had a chance to look, you are right about the brigades. If you all are into what ifs, toss the 78th into it. They had more AT assets in it than can possibly be believed compared to other units of the time.

[Webstral]

There's never enough infantry. The only item in shorter supply than the infantry is good quality infantry. I would argue that high quality infantry is a nation's best MBT, so to speak. The rifles may not be able to force a quick solution the way the tanks can, but they can fight and win under far less favorable conditions.

[Webstral]

I'm not interested in getting into a measuring contest regarding whose nation is the most democratic, has the moral high ground, or what have you. I do grow weary of the cheap shots at the US. If you have something to say, say it instead of sniping as the opportunity arises. Once you snipe, don't get your panties in a bunch when a counter-sniper team is deployed. Emoticons are cutesy, but they're also the tool of choice for teenaged girls who mean to write something hurtful but don't want to be called to account for it. Let's be men. Got a problem with the US? Just say it. I can take it. I'd prefer a straightforward conversation about the things that need improvement with the US (and they are legion) to the cheap shots and sniping, emoticons included or otherwise.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Webstral

There's never enough infantry. The only item in shorter supply than the infantry is good quality infantry. I would argue that high quality infantry is a nation's best MBT, so to speak. The rifles may not be able to force a quick solution the way the tanks can, but they can fight and win under far less favorable conditions.

Thats what I always liked about the 78th Sturm: They was an infantry division that had the KStN's modified to emphasize defensive fighting - and given a priority to draw men and equipment over most other heer units, so the level of the troops was somewhat better than some PzGren units, and about all Gren units. Unlike a lot of units in mid 44, they was awash - being one of the first to draw - with Panzerfausts and Schrecks, each company had a battery of PaK40's (they was supposed to have 6, not 3, but the evidence is sketchy if they ever drew 6, though solid that they got at least 3), with more in the Battalion Weapons Company (Normally, there was only 3 PaK's in each battalion - 78th's battalions had 12 or more), as well as an Organic PanzerJager BN, another PaK Company, and STuG battalion - complete with riders armed with Assault Rifles.

Granted, they was by and large foot infantry, not motorized, but that isn't a fault when it comes to Bocage country. I really believe having this division dug into the Bocage area would have been a stupidly painful unit to dig out.