Composition of TF34

[Legbreaker]

You're probably right, but the tanker is still an amazingly valuable resource. The Germans might not be looking to do a double cross, but on the other hand, from their perspective, what's to stop the Americans if the fuel was handed over too early?
It's not like the Americans have to live with the consequences - they're about to sail halfway around the world and will probably have nothing further to do with Europe for a generation or two.

Meanwhile of course there's those US units staying behind, but the assumption in the planning stages had to always be the US were aiming for a 100% withdrawal.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

You're probably right, but the tanker is still an amazingly valuable resource. The Germans might not be looking to do a double cross, but on the other hand, from their perspective, what's to stop the Americans if the fuel was handed over too early?

Lack of space becomes the German guarantee that the Americans will leave their heavy gear. A comparison between the shipping carrying the Americans to Virginia and the requirements for heavy gear should satisfy the Germans that the tanks, guns, and other heavy equipment will stay in Germany.

[Legbreaker]

Even so, it's just plain bad practise to hand over payment prior to receiving the goods.
As an example, if you were buying a new luxury car, would you really hand over every last dollar weeks before even laying eyes on it? No, you'd probably only go as far as laying down a deposit and hand over the rest of the cash when you got the keys.
The same logic applies to the oil and the German shipping (page three again - NO mention of US ships involved besides the USS John Hancock). The Germans aren't stupid. They're sure to retain absolute control of the resources involved until they've got what they're paying for.

One other point is that until the last week or so, nobody is likely to know just how many people will be boarding the ships, and it's also likely that involvement of a few ships remains uncertain (ongoing repairs, etc). With that uncertainty, the Americans could manage to slip in half a dozen tanks, a truckload of electronics, ten tonnes of valuable medical supplies and so forth - the Germans would be doing everything in their power to prevent that.

My belief as previously indicated is the Germans would only part with a minimal amount of oil necessary for getting the ships to the point of ready for departure. An inspection would then be carried out by Germans and the ship would be allowed to move to the fuel point to fill it's tanks. This may well mean the passengers are cooped up aboard ship another couple of days, but at least they've got a roof over their heads, food supplied, nobody shooting at them, and they're on the way home.

[Webstral]

Fine. So the Germans take some steps to make sure they get what was promised. Maybe they even have a few of their own people at the docks to watch what goes on the ships. Maybe the stevedores are all German nationals reporting to the Army. One does not roll a tank up the gangplank of a passenger ship, after all. I don’t really see what the big deal is.

[Rainbow Six]

Something has just occurred to me.

I don't have a copy of Going Home immediately to had, so am going from memory, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, however isn't it kinda assumed that that this was a one way trip?

If that is the case and we agree that with the exeption of the USS John Hancock the majority (if not all) of the TF34 Fleet is made up of German merchant ships, I'm thinking there might be a problem finding crews for these ships? How many German sailors are going to be happy to sign up for a one way ticket to North America? Or do we assume that there are enough US and Canadian sailors stuck in Germany to form skeleton crews? Or are we back with the theory that TF34 includes a number of US ships that have been stuck in Bremerhaven since the reinforcements arrived in 1999?

just a passing thought...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Something has just occurred to me.

I don't have a copy of Going Home immediately to had, so am going from memory, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, however isn't it kinda assumed that that this was a one way trip?

If that is the case and we agree that with the exeption of the USS John Hancock the majority (if not all) of the TF34 Fleet is made up of German merchant ships, I'm thinking there might be a problem finding crews for these ships? How many German sailors are going to be happy to sign up for a one way ticket to North America? Or do we assume that there are enough US and Canadian sailors stuck in Germany to form skeleton crews? Or are we back with the theory that TF34 includes a number of US ships that have been stuck in Bremerhaven since the reinforcements arrived in 1999?

just a passing thought...

Some German merchant sailors may be completely dispossessed: home was nuked out of existence, so a one-way trip to America where things maybe aren't so bad (relatively) might be more appealing than staying home.

Could be that there's a lot of sailors who've been shore security for a few years itching to get back in water even if it's one last time. I'm sure that there's probably a few fleet officers that feel that way.

Failing any of that, John Hancock could have brought over a compliment of US sailors from the 'States just for the operation. I think a few hundred would do the job nicely (if that many - I'm not up on how big cargo ships operate). This assumes Hancock had to come from the US. If it came from the UK there might have been a transferral of US Navy personnel from there; this is their shot at going home too...

[Legbreaker]

My guess is the Hancock was already in Europe and had participated in the summer offensive. It would have been needed to escort the ships carrying the US marines.

I'm not sure off the top of my head about a one way trip. All I can recall is that burning crude oil causes "issues" with the diesel engines. If they were able to reliably cross the Atlantic westward, my guess is they may have been able to return again too.

Now I think about it, the use of German ships with German crews makes more sense of the fuel issue. Logistical control stays fully in the hands of the Germans thereby guarenteeing they get the promised equipment, and keep the ships. Not sure if the value of those ships outweighs the value of the oil they burn coming back though...

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

If that is the case and we agree that with the exeption of the USS John Hancock the majority (if not all) of the TF34 Fleet is made up of German merchant ships, I'm thinking there might be a problem finding crews for these ships? How many German sailors are going to be happy to sign up for a one way ticket to North America? Or do we assume that there are enough US and Canadian sailors stuck in Germany to form skeleton crews? Or are we back with the theory that TF34 includes a number of US ships that have been stuck in Bremerhaven since the reinforcements arrived in 1999?

There could well be sufficient fuel for one or a few ships to make the trip back to Germany from Norfolk. The German sailors could return as passengers on those couple of ships. I don't think this is completely out of the question because there might be a few high-value ships the Germans insisted on retaining control of and having returned to them at the end of the operation.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Targan

There could well be sufficient fuel for one or a few ships to make the trip back to Germany from Norfolk. The German sailors could return as passengers on those couple of ships. I don't think this is completely out of the question because there might be a few high-value ships the Germans insisted on retaining control of and having returned to them at the end of the operation.

Ok, that makes sense to me...I guess only one ship needs to be able to make it back - the rest of the fleet could be abandoned at Norfolk.